Focussing Issues with the E3

[OlyFlyer]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

I'm genuinely sorry for the (apparently) small number of people that have had problems, but to suggest that everyone has the problem is a bit extreme, don't you think? I certainly don't have any problems and many others I know don't either. And there are those who have had replacement lenses and seem to be happy now.

The E-3's AF system and the new SWD AF mechanism are very sophisticated and, admittedly, complicated.

There are so many options - release priority modes, AF point sensitivity, more AF points, and the change from fly by wire to all-time mechanically linked focus control amount to a lot of differences from previous Olympus DSLRs and lenses. Maybe the system is too complex; so that would be a fair criticism, but is it really a case of getting to understand the system and making the best use of it rather than it being faulty? I wonder.

Ian

Unfortunatelly, complexity is not the problem here. Please don't write off everything with user error and technical complexity. I have a perfect understanding on how the E-3 AF system works and the problem I am talking about has nothing to do with the 12-60. It is one thing that the 12-60 has an error as well, but so has the E-3. If it is fixable via firmware or not, is a different question. Onece again, the problem I am talking about is not even lens related, it is there with EVERY lens, but more clearly visible with the faster ones. Not even related to longer zooms, even the 40-150 displays the focus problem.

I would welcome to test one of the "perfect" cameras, unfortunatelly I can not keep on buying more bodies until I find a perfect one, if there is any.

[Guest]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

The argument that there is an inherent focussing problem with the E-3 fails because the protagonists fail to demonstrate

1) a set of reproduceable characteristics/circumstances in which the problem occurs.

2) a common definition of how the problem affects an image, which can be applied to an image and can be used to assess whether it falls within the 'family' of this 'problem'.

At the moment the culpability for the failure is on the protagonists of the view that there is an inherent problem. Those that have that view have not presented an argument of sufficient strength to sustain their position.

I will continue to follow this debate with interest, and continue to sympathise with those who feel they have problems with the focussing systems.

But please, if you wish to state there is an inherent fault, do the work necessary to sustain that argument and then share that work for the purposes of 'peer' review.

Nick

[art frames]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

The argument that there is an inherent focussing problem with the E-3 fails because the protagonists fail to demonstrate

1) a set of reproduceable characteristics/circumstances in which the problem occurs.

2) a common definition of how the problem affects an image, which can be applied to an image and can be used to assess whether it falls within the 'family' of this 'problem'.

At the moment the culpability for the failure is on the protagonists of the view that there is an inherent problem. Those that have that view have not presented an argument of sufficient strength to sustain their position.

I will continue to follow this debate with interest, and continue to sympathise with those who feel they have problems with the focussing systems.

But please, if you wish to state there is an inherent fault, do the work necessary to sustain that argument and then share that work for the purposes of 'peer' review.

Nick

Nick

This is a reasonable point of view to have if you have a good camera.

My first E3 and 12-60 were both faulty. It was stressful but I did prove to Digital Depot that they were. They replicated the fault very easily and we agreed a swap I think they acted very well considering. It has taken me a while to get over that experience.

At the time I had very little experience of a good E3 (just Ian's London James Bond event) so I do understand why it feels like this is a widespread issue when you are in that place. In the midst of the problem it is very stressful and you grasp at the hope that Olympus will do something that will solve this. It is a significant amount of money that was a discretionary spend and I was worried. I feel for all people in that place - I'd expect upset and anger to be in their minds along with the hope that tomorrow something will change.

My latest E3 has also had some focus issues which I think I can put down to the 12-60 replacement which was also in the faulty batch (and will need to be checked) and/or technique. I'm happy to do that because I don't want the system to be faulty as that will be even more hassle.

I believe the usefulness of discussion around this issue is very limited. I would like to offer those with issues some empathy. It is upsetting and the best advice I had was from those kind folk that got me to go back to the supplier and say it was faulty and get a replacement or refund. It was, and is the best advice.

good luck to those affected.

Peter

[Jim Ford]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

Bang-on Nick. Some of us need to keep steady heads around here!

There's a strange sense of mystery - a 'I know something you don't know', air to Olyflyer's postings on the subject!

As I've previously mentioned, the subject has also seems to have generated a certain amount of hysteria across various forums on this and other sites, a bit like an epidemic where everyone is worrying about minor twinges and looking at their tongues in the mirror - 'OMG - I think I've got it!'.

Jim

[OlyFlyer]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

Bang-on Nick. Some of us need to keep steady heads around here!

There's a strange sense of mystery - a 'I know something you don't know', air to Olyflyer's postings on the subject!

As I've previously mentioned, the subject has also seems to have generated a certain amount of hysteria across various forums on this and other sites, a bit like an epidemic where everyone is worrying about minor twinges and looking at their tongues in the mirror - 'OMG - I think I've got it!'.

Jim

I honestly regret I said anything here. Anyway, I think I understand perfectly all the problems. I am not interested in starting a revolution, that's why I will not go into details. If it sounds like a game of 'I know something you don't know', well so be it. I am sure Olympus is going to handle the problem in a professional way.

When I placed my order, I knew all about the problems discussed on the Internet. Of course, I was hoping everybody else was wrong and only user errors and a very few bad samples existed. Now I know that is not the case. Just to make it clear, I did not regret my move to buy the E-3. Once the problem is fixed I know I will love the camera. I trust the excellent service Olympus provides, and I am comfortable to discuss the problem with them, and also know they will solve it the way I want.

[OlyFlyer]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

The argument that there is an inherent focussing problem with the E-3 fails because the protagonists fail to demonstrate

1) a set of reproduceable characteristics/circumstances in which the problem occurs.

2) a common definition of how the problem affects an image, which can be applied to an image and can be used to assess whether it falls within the 'family' of this 'problem'.

At the moment the culpability for the failure is on the protagonists of the view that there is an inherent problem. Those that have that view have not presented an argument of sufficient strength to sustain their position.

I will continue to follow this debate with interest, and continue to sympathise with those who feel they have problems with the focussing systems.

But please, if you wish to state there is an inherent fault, do the work necessary to sustain that argument and then share that work for the purposes of 'peer' review.

Nick

Well, I hate to say it, both your points 1 and 2 are well documented in my computer.

As for the arguing part, I think I start a bit more professionally and contact Olympus directly. At this moment I see no reason to argue on any forum. As a matter of fact, if my camera would be OK, maybe I would share your views. Now, I just say you have no idea what you are talking about. Well, actually, not even if my camera would be OK I would share your views actually. Why? Because I am too old and I have learned people are not hysteric and stupid. Even if my camera would work, it can be that:

1. I did not test it the same way
2. I am not using it the same way
3. I am not interested to find out
4. I am affraid to find a problem since it will not justify the spending in that case
5. There may be some other people who know more than me
6. There may be some people who have higher requirements than me

...and so on. Regardless how it is, I would never tell others they are wrong unless I really can proof it, and AFAIK, you can't proof I am wrong. Maybe later, if Ian changes the policy for posting images I will post some images and the "how to..." part, but I first want to see how Olypus reacts and must get my camera fixed before going deeper into discussions.

[PeterD]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

Well, I hate to say it, both your points 1 and 2 are well documented in my computer.

As for the arguing part, I think I start a bit more professionally and contact Olympus directly. At this moment I see no reason to argue on any forum. As a matter of fact, if my camera would be OK, maybe I would share your views. Now, I just say you have no idea what you are talking about. Well, actually, not even if my camera would be OK I would share your views actually. Why? Because I am too old and I have learned people are not hysteric and stupid. Even if my camera would work, it can be that:

1. I did not test it the same way
2. I am not using it the same way
3. I am not interested to find out
4. I am affraid to find a problem since it will not justify the spending in that case
5. There may be some other people who know more than me
6. There may be some people who have higher requirements than me

...and so on. Regardless how it is, I would never tell others they are wrong unless I really can proof it, and AFAIK, you can't proof I am wrong. Maybe later, if Ian changes the policy for posting images I will post some images and the "how to..." part, but I first want to see how Olypus reacts and must get my camera fixed before going deeper into discussions.

Hi OlyFlyer

I think you are approaching this in the right way but its a shame that your general thoughts are public. There has been enough hysteria generated, no not from you but from others.
The problem of giving some information is that this will lead to demands for more. Speak to Olympus as you intend and I, like you, am sure that if there is an issue to address it will be taken up. Instant answers are rarely available and rushed solutions lead to tears.
When you have had the chance to speak to Olympus and when you think it appropriate, I certainly would like to be updated whichever way it goes.

Good luck

PeterD

[Guest]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

Well, I hate to say it, both your points 1 and 2 are well documented in my computer.

As for the arguing part, I think I start a bit more professionally and contact Olympus directly. At this moment I see no reason to argue on any forum. As a matter of fact, if my camera would be OK, maybe I would share your views. Now, I just say you have no idea what you are talking about. Well, actually, not even if my camera would be OK I would share your views actually. Why? Because I am too old and I have learned people are not hysteric and stupid. Even if my camera would work, it can be that:

1. I did not test it the same way
2. I am not using it the same way
3. I am not interested to find out
4. I am affraid to find a problem since it will not justify the spending in that case
5. There may be some other people who know more than me
6. There may be some people who have higher requirements than me

...and so on. Regardless how it is, I would never tell others they are wrong unless I really can proof it, and AFAIK, you can't proof I am wrong. Maybe later, if Ian changes the policy for posting images I will post some images and the "how to..." part, but I first want to see how Olypus reacts and must get my camera fixed before going deeper into discussions.

OlyFlyer

I'm reluctant to respond as anything I say may seem like pouring burning oil on water that should already be calm.

You are of course correct that the evidence you have that your individual camera has problems with AF should be presented to Olympus, I hope that you do that.

I used the term argument in its traditional and proper english sense and that is a series of points, with supporting facts, that seek to prove a contention (or point of view). I am aware that latter day usage has given argument the same meaning as row or fight, I had hoped that the context in which I used the word argument made my intention clear, if it did not then I apologise.

As to your list of points, well the first two are just a restatement of my request for those who believe there is an inherent fault to adequately define the circumstances in which it occurs.

The third is insulting and should not be on this group.

Ditto I'm afraid for the fourth.

I'll happily agree to the fifth, no one in this group has been appointed expert; we are all just enthusiasts trying to learn from each other (and I hope I remain an enthusiast who is learning till the day I die).

As to the sixth - well I've always regarded low hanging fruit to be as desirable as low women who hang out. Yes other people may have other requirements, but that is merely points 1 and 2 restated in a more contentious way.

What saddens me most is that my post was not an attack on any individual, or their expertise, nor was it a denial that there may be issues with either individual or a set of cameras; I have difficulty in understanding why you read it in the way you apparently did, but if you did then you, and the group, have my apology.

Nick

[OlyFlyer]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

OlyFlyer

I'm reluctant to respond as anything I say may seem like pouring burning oil on water that should already be calm.

You are of course correct that the evidence you have that your individual camera has problems with AF should be presented to Olympus, I hope that you do that.

I used the term argument in its traditional and proper english sense and that is a series of points, with supporting facts, that seek to prove a contention (or point of view). I am aware that latter day usage has given argument the same meaning as row or fight, I had hoped that the context in which I used the word argument made my intention clear, if it did not then I apologise.

As to your list of points, well the first two are just a restatement of my request for those who believe there is an inherent fault to adequately define the circumstances in which it occurs.

The third is insulting and should not be on this group.

Ditto I'm afraid for the fourth.

I'll happily agree to the fifth, no one in this group has been appointed expert; we are all just enthusiasts trying to learn from each other (and I hope I remain an enthusiast who is learning till the day I die).

As to the sixth - well I've always regarded low hanging fruit to be as desirable as low women who hang out. Yes other people may have other requirements, but that is merely points 1 and 2 restated in a more contentious way.

What saddens me most is that my post was not an attack on any individual, or their expertise, nor was it a denial that there may be issues with either individual or a set of cameras; I have difficulty in understanding why you read it in the way you apparently did, but if you did then you, and the group, have my apology.

Nick

Hi Nick,

My aim was not to attack your post, more to describe how different people react when they hear about problems. Indeed there are a whole lot of people belonging to my points 3 or/and 4, the oystrich type, sticking heads in the sand and happy as long as they don't see a problem, and when somebody shows them they just neglect and refuse to see it. I think this is very normal human behavoir, since we can not cope with all the possible problems we can get in one single day, so we have to filter out some of the possible issue in life. Different people filter out different things, and I am not judging anybody for what they filter out. There is also a great many people who must justify any investment so, for some of them it is a kind of failure to have to admit they don't have the perfect whatever it is they expected to have; a car, a home, a TV set, a camera and so on. That justification can be just for oneself, or in some cases even for others, like a manager or a family member. I was working hard the last nine days trying to proof I was wrong about the E-3. I tried to find out what I was doing wrong, why so many problems in my images with such a nice camera. Unfortunately I failed and instead I have identified that my problems are systematicly repeatable, which is good I think.

By keep on saying what I have seen is only valid for my individual camera, well, that is the oystrich behavoir if you ask me. Of course, I will never have proof that the problem is in 100% of the E-3 since I will not be able to test 100% of the bodies, nor am I interested to do it. However, I would be happy to test one of the perfect ones, but even that is impossible since nobody is interested to send me theirs, and I can not keep on buying new camera bodies.

As for the low hanging fruit being the most desirable, that may be true if reachability from ground is part of the equation. But if we would ask birds or apes I am sure they would disagree because the high hanging fruits have the best taste and are most mature.

Cheers
OlyFlyer

[OlyFlyer]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

This afternoon I forever parted from my E-3. I spoke to Oly earlier today and sent them my findings together with a few images. The very quick verdict was that my camera is a DOA and is to be changed. So I packed everything and sent it back to them.

I hope the next one will be the perfect E-3 some people are talking about. At least now I won't need more than a few hours to identify the problems I had with my number one E-3.

Anyway, I will not sell out. I am still very happy with the way Oly Sweden threated me so far.

[mlc]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

So if you get a perfectly working camera back, which camp will you now belong in - the Ostriches?

I'm sorry you don't seem to have grasped the idea that there might be people out there with good cameras - when you get yours back, will you be the only one?

Mark

[PeterD]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

Olyflyer

Glad to hear you got a quick response from Oly.

I am sorry that you had to go through that experience though.

Things have changed over here too in terms of response and lack of defensive comments. This is what I tried to impress on Ptomsu earlier on this thread.

Have had any indication when your replacement arrives? As I recall, you also have your E1 in for repair, any news on that front? You have probably been the most unlucky on this forum.

Kind regards

PeterD

[jojo]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

Oly -- can you describe when/how your camera misfocus?

From my own limited usage (camera is still fairly new) my camera has a tendency to front focus. Often the subject is at the very rare of the plane of focus but on more than one occasion it is not. This has been mostly observed via testing. I've only begun to use the camera for general photography and so will collect more data. So far when the camera cannot lock it does not lock (none of this funky "I've locked onto nothing snap away" that I've read about).

The front focus bit concerns me a little but if I don't see it in real pictures then I'm not going to worry too much about it. The other thing I've observed is that manually focus image at infinity is sharper than camera auto focus at infinity (i.e, the lens did not quite reach infinity). I need to double check this one as perhaps it was vibration related and not actual mis focus.
--
Note that from another person I've talked to the front focus is very slight. If you look at the image 1:1 and a properly focused image it is quite obvious but if you are not critical it can easily be masked by the extended dof of the 4:3 system and a bit of sharpening. Having said this is that once you see a properly focused image you realize just "how much better" it can look if properly focused.

If the weather is nice next weekend I will spend a few hours shooting critters and then I might be able to better respond. It really does not take too much camera motion to mask out of focus image but I think this is an area of concern.

I honestly regret I said anything here. Anyway, I think I understand perfectly all the problems. I am not interested in starting a revolution, that's why I will not go into details. If it sounds like a game of 'I know something you don't know', well so be it. I am sure Olympus is going to handle the problem in a professional way.

When I placed my order, I knew all about the problems discussed on the Internet. Of course, I was hoping everybody else was wrong and only user errors and a very few bad samples existed. Now I know that is not the case. Just to make it clear, I did not regret my move to buy the E-3. Once the problem is fixed I know I will love the camera. I trust the excellent service Olympus provides, and I am comfortable to discuss the problem with them, and also know they will solve it the way I want.

[OlyFlyer]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

Olyflyer

Glad to hear you got a quick response from Oly.

I am sorry that you had to go through that experience though.

Things have changed over here too in terms of response and lack of defensive comments. This is what I tried to impress on Ptomsu earlier on this thread.

Have had any indication when your replacement arrives? As I recall, you also have your E1 in for repair, any news on that front? You have probably been the most unlucky on this forum.

Kind regards

PeterD

Hi Peter,

No I don't have E-1, I have E-500 in for repair. Third week now.

The indication was that it will be within a few days if they have it in Hamburg, which is probably the case. As I said earlier, I am happy with Oly service and the way they have handled me. That is what keeps my hopes up and keeps me being loyal to them.

Cheers

[OlyFlyer]

Re: Focussing Issues with the E3

So if you get a perfectly working camera back, which camp will you now belong in - the Ostriches?

I'm sorry you don't seem to have grasped the idea that there might be people out there with good cameras - when you get yours back, will you be the only one?

Mark

I don't think I will get the perfect camera. I had a list of nine different problems. If three will be fixed I am happy. I may and may not tell about the other six, some of which I believe are global for everybody. I will continue to discuss with Oly Japan.

No, I will not be an oystrich. I am sorry for that. I am perfectly able to grasp any idea, regardless of what you think, I am even prepared to apologize if every one of my points would somehow be solved with the next E-3, which I have strong doubts about.