Nose Gunner, B17

[KeithL]

Hi Folks
I have at last managed to find a little time to post something on the forum! I tried two ways of treating the attached subject; I'm undecided which is the better way to go, and also interested in comments on the subject.

Firstly, a more 'normal' approach:

[IMG][/IMG]

Secondly, a darker perhaps more atmospheric approach:

[IMG][/IMG]


This isn't the easiest of subjects, since this was the only viable angle - the nose of a B17 is a long way above you!

Comments gratefully received! Thanks for looking etc.

[Phill D]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

I definitely prefer the first one Keith.

[alfbranch]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

Both are a bit flat IMO and need some bighter tones there is more to be had from original I think

I suggest more like this

Not my shot 2017-27 by Alf Branch, on Flickr

[KeithL]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

Both are a bit flat IMO and need some bighter tones there is more to be had from original I think

I suggest more like this

Not my shot 2017-27 by Alf Branch, on Flickr

That's certainly a thought, Alf. I left it with the 'quieter' toning, because the aircraft is silver; but yes, this make sit more dramatic. I would need to damp down the burn out on the knobs, though, don't you think? Maybe a tad on his fur collar too. Thanks.

[iso]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

OMG - 55,000+ Bomber Crews were killed and you lot piss about discussing pixels. IMHO the image is the message.

[KeithL]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

John
I'm not losing any sleep over iso's comment! It's inaccurate anyway - it's an American aircraft/and would have had American crew. In total, the 8th Air Force lost 27,674 aircraft in WW2, of which 4,500-odd were B17s.

I do appreciate Alf's comment, and I will act on it. Alf's modification is a little bit too 'soot and whitewash' for my taste, but yes, a bit more contrast does perhaps improve it. Perhaps a bit more selective contrast enhancement?

Thanks for commenting.

[Phill D]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

I think it's because of the messages behind photos like this it is worth discussing the photographic merit and getting the best image to convey the underlying themes.

[drmarkf]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

Interesting, isn't it. Discussion of images is always revealing even if (inevitably) we have differing views in detail.

I do find the second original one too dark, but if the head was brightened a little and made more contrasty then for me it would be atmospheric and might capture something of the feel of a surreptitious night attack.

I prefer the first, and agree that a bit more contrast would help, but personally I'd try to retain some of the mysterious atmosphere: maybe again mainly some local alterations of the figure.

[KeithL]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

I have done a quick update to the first image, herewith.

Does that improve it, d'you think? I'm inclined to think it's the way to go. I shall have to tone down the catch light in the eye, and also smooth the chap's skin.

[IMG][/IMG]

I've tried all along to capture the atmosphere with this subject!
Thanks for looking and comments.

[Zuiko]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

Yes of course members are discussing pixels ! For your information this is the " Looking For Improvement Board " This is a where people post photos they wish to receive critique on. I doubt very much that the OP posted the photo with the intention of receiving comments related to the horrors of WW2. He is simply looking for comments relating to the photographic merits of his photo and suggestions for improvement from the membership.

Just like a similar comment you made last week that was removed by an Admin., this post is totally inappropriate, unnecessary, and downright rude and insulting to members who submitted comments and IMHO should also be removed by the Admins.

John

I appreciate your sentiments John, but although I don't agree with iso's comment I don't believe it crosses enough boundaries to warrant censorship, although it could be construed as off topic given the section it is in. Anyway, it's been read and replied to, so the genie is already out of the bottle and deleting it now will only cause confusion to future readers of this thread. Better to let it stand I think and let others judge for themselves how crass it might be.

Back on topic, that's a super picture, Keith, especially with Alf's processing. It helps remind us of the huge debt we still owe to all those brave aircrew of WW2.

[iso]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

I apologise to all those offended.
Truth is I am doing a lot of reading just now on Bomber and Fighter Command including some gruesome accounts. So given that (and my personal problem with overmuch PP), the Thread touched a nerve. Sorry.

[PeterBirder]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

OMG - 55,000+ Bomber Crews were killed and you lot piss about discussing pixels. IMHO the image is the message.

In polite circles we call it "messing about discussing pixels".

[KeithL]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

As someone who is not a great lover of any kind of heights, looking at that photo makes me think how scary it must have been just flying sat in that turret without bullets, shells and flak coming at you from all sides.

Keith has captured the mood and feeling perfectly and as John (Zuiko) states, it reminds us all of the debt we still owe. I make no suggestion regarding PP as I could not come close to doing better myself but think the first photo and Alf's are excellent and both have equal merits.

Well done Keith and apologies for hijacking the thread with my previous post !

Best regards,

John

Having been aboard a Lancaster (among others), what struck me was the total lack of protection; all there is between especially the guy in the nose and the outside world was one flimsy Perspex and aluminum sheet. Stats show that the survival rate for the guy in the front was not good! I have a book of WW2 gun camera shots, one of which is a B17 with the front back to the wings totally blown off, and the aircraft just beginning its final dive. War may be many things; glorious it ain't!

Thanks all for comments about the image. I thought I'd caught much of the atmosphere, but wasn't sure how others would see it.

Interestingly, Harris had a poor opinion of his crews. He is reported as telling someone, "Only a third of my crews are any good. The others are just there to give the Germans something to shoot at." I wonder how the crews would have reacted, had they heard that at the time.

[pdk42]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

Nice image Keith. I think the mono treatment is probably the right thing to do, but I'd be interested to see the colour one too. I think Alf's higher contrast version adds some punch that's worth having - but then again I can see why you wanted something more subtle.

As to the subject of Bomber Command etc - well, it's a topic of broad debate even all these years after the war. That being crew in these aircraft was a likely ticket to an early grave is certainly true, but the world back then was very different to today's world.

Personally, I think it's essential that we remember the personal tragedies behind the political events so that there is a chance, even if it's a small one, that we won't make the same mistake again. With fools like Trump at the helm that's more of a challenge today than it's been since 1938.

[KeithL]

Re: Nose Gunner, B17

Paul
The colour version is completely uninspiring! It was actually shot at Hendon, and the lighting in there, combined with the cluttered background makes photography of any quality, well, nightmarish. I had the idea in my head what I would do with the original image, which was mono, when I took it. So I would prefer not to put the original on here - I would be quite embarrassed by it!

Incidentally, it was taken with my E-PL7 and the 40-150. With it being dark inside, that lens was NOT helpful! And the shot had to be hand-held, no other option, realistically. I love the E-PL7, the shutter release is very smooth indeed, and the results easily as good as my M5, which I hardly ever use now. Don't use my E-PL3 at all, which is a shame, it's only shot 2700 frames.