Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge? :(

[Naughty Nigel]

I see the London borough of Islington is to start penalising the owners of diesel cars by selectively increasing residents' parking charges.

BBC Article

I didn't think parked vehicles caused much air pollution, but I could be wrong on this.

I accept that air quality is a very real issue in some urban areas, but is it fair to scapegoat the owners of parked diesel cars for this?

I see there is no mention of diesel buses or delivery vans; both of which I would argue are responsible for causing a great deal more pollution than parked diesel cars. And one doesn't often see diesel cars parked with their engines left running unnecessarily for an our or two (unlike buses).

(In any case, Islington Council has no control over vehicles driving through the borough, so what is the point of all this?)

Given that all vehicles, (especially electric vehicles) are responsible for causing pollution somewhere is this legislation necessary and proportionate, or is this yet another example of misguided town hall mandarins scapegoating private motorists who just want a means of transport to get to work?

We were all encouraged to switch to diesel owing to superior fuel economy and reduced CO2 emissions, but it seems will now be penalised for doing so.

I see from the BBC Article that Islington Council charges residents for parking permits based on their vehicle's CO2 emissions, with a surcharge for diesel vehicles. Presumably anyone who switches back to petrol will still be penalised for their vehicle's higher CO2 emissions?

Meanwhile, a spokesman for the from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders said that modern diesel cars were the cleanest ever.

So who are we to believe?

[Harold Gough]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

For a start, don't believe that councillors are the most intelligent people in the neighbourhood.

Harold

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

For a start, don't believe that councillors are the most intelligent people in the neighbourhood.

Harold

Good point; although in this case it seems they have a disproportionate ability to impose their will on the very community that they are supposed to be serving.

[Wally]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

Like most councils / councillors, the only people they serve, first and foremost, are themselves. As Nigel will probable be aware, we, here in Durham, now pay to have the green bins emptied. With fly tipping of garden waste on the increase, no doubt it was the right thing to do? Council tax has continued to be raised every year and this time around the 'bin' stealth tax was added on.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, food banks are on the rise.

[drmarkf]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

The problem relates to the substantial scientific evidence that diesel vehicles emit more particulates than petrol ones, and that these have a major adverse health effects on people, especially those with pre-existing respiratory chronic illnesses. We're talking huge numbers of premature deaths per year and substantial costs for the old NH of S.

Of course a parked vehicle doesn't emit anything with the engine off, but unless it gets to its parking place on the back of an electric-powered car transporter you can't say it doesn't release particulates to the local air!

Yes, we were sold a bit of a puppy over CO2 emissions.

BTW I drive a diesel car, but it is only 3 years old, and recent diesels emit much lower particulates than older ones because the manufacturers saw this coming.

We can complain, but we'd be wrong both on health and UK economic grounds.

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

Like most councils / councillors, the only people they serve, first and foremost, are themselves. As Nigel will probable be aware, we, here in Durham, now pay to have the green bins emptied.

And I seem to remember we were told that Durham County Council would make a profit from collecting green waste, and that was before the Green Bin Stealth Tax!

I hear they are getting very fussy about the contents of the blue waste recycling bins in Stockton too, but we digress.

[Zuiko]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

The problem relates to the substantial scientific evidence that diesel vehicles emit more particulates than petrol ones, and that these have a major adverse health effects on people, especially those with pre-existing respiratory chronic illnesses. We're talking huge numbers of premature deaths per year and substantial costs for the old NH of S.

Of course a parked vehicle doesn't emit anything with the engine off, but unless it gets to its parking place on the back of an electric-powered car transporter you can't say it doesn't release particulates to the local air!

Yes, we were sold a bit of a puppy over CO2 emissions.

BTW I drive a diesel car, but it is only 3 years old, and recent diesels emit much lower particulates than older ones because the manufacturers saw this coming.

We can complain, but we'd be wrong both on health and UK economic grounds.

I'm sure this is right, but is it fair to ration use of cars based on ability to pay? It sends out a message that it's OK to damage the environment if you can afford to pay and that it is therefore acceptable for rich people to do this but not poor people. And surely the relative extra damage a diesel car does to the environment is already accounted for in road tax and additional duty on fuel?

I'm afraid that to me this seems like a thinly disguised initiative by the council to garner more money to boost their budget, by hook or by crook.

[drmarkf]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

I'm sure this is right, but is it fair to ration use of cars based on ability to pay? It sends out a message that it's OK to damage the environment if you can afford to pay and that it is therefore acceptable for rich people to do this but not poor people.

Welcome to the neoliberal world view

(And, no, I didn't vote for them)

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

The problem relates to the substantial scientific evidence that diesel vehicles emit more particulates than petrol ones, and that these have a major adverse health effects on people, especially those with pre-existing respiratory chronic illnesses. We're talking huge numbers of premature deaths per year and substantial costs for the old NH of S.

Of course a parked vehicle doesn't emit anything with the engine off, but unless it gets to its parking place on the back of an electric-powered car transporter you can't say it doesn't release particulates to the local air!

Yes, we were sold a bit of a puppy over CO2 emissions.

BTW I drive a diesel car, but it is only 3 years old, and recent diesels emit much lower particulates than older ones because the manufacturers saw this coming.

We can complain, but we'd be wrong both on health and UK economic grounds.

I do not disagree with the science, which is well founded and longstanding, but I do disagree with the 'derriere about face' way that some local councils are dealing with the problem.

I accept that air quality in London is a particular problem, but I hear it is significantly and measurably better whenever London bus drivers go on strike! If buses are a major contributor to the problem then surely it would make sense to do something about buses first (especially as they have much larger engines than cars and are used for many more hours of the day).

Electric vehicles are not the answer, as they simply create even more pollution 'somewhere else', and will continue to do so until power generation, the electricity grid and battery charging systems become 100% efficient. Until then I would aver that it is better to burn fuel cleanly and efficiently in the vehicle concerned.

I must declare a vested interest as I too drive a diesel car, although judging by the colour of the exhausts the particulate output must be near zero as they are as clean now as when I bought it seven years ago. (The MOT test results seem to confirm this.)

However, I do still see a lot of new diesel cars, and especially vans emitting a lot of black smoke. I thought Diesel Particulate Filters had been mandatory for a few years now? But surely it would make more sense to target the drivers of offending vehicles rather than to penalise everyone who drives a diesel car?

Thankfully I live a long way from London, and have no reasons to drive there, but these things have a nasty habit of spreading!

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

I'm sure this is right, but is it fair to ration use of cars based on ability to pay? It sends out a message that it's OK to damage the environment if you can afford to pay and that it is therefore acceptable for rich people to do this but not poor people. And surely the relative extra damage a diesel car does to the environment is already accounted for in road tax and additional duty on fuel?

I'm afraid that to me this seems like a thinly disguised initiative by the council to garner more money to boost their budget, by hook or by crook.

Quite. Likewise, it is OK to drive an electric car that causes 'even more pollution somewhere else'.

Maybe the councils of East Yorkshire (affected by pollution from the many coal fired power stations there) should impose environmental taxes on people driving electric cars in city centres? It makes about as much sense as Islington's legislation!

[DerekW]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

If such fervour migrates to France it will be interesting observing the French who are not as willing as the Brits to bend over to be serviced by the self opinionated petty dictators of the left.

[ian p]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

How can they tell a vehicle is a Diesel? Is there something on the tax disk? Or do they check on a database?

[Zuiko]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

If such fervour migrates to France it will be interesting observing the French who are not as willing as the Brits to bend over to be serviced by the self opinionated petty dictators of the left.

and right!

[Wally]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

The bottom line in this, is that the owners of motor vehicles are very much an easy target. Name,rank and numbers can be had as easily as pressing a mouse button. Unlike the French, as mentioned above, we take it on the chin whilst complaining bitterly over a pint. It doesn't help matters as, even when we vote on certain issues, the power that has the power, do what they want with little or no recourse.

The dice isn't the only thing that is loaded in their favour, the whole game is rigged.

Where's a Guy Fawkes when you need one?

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Is this the Thin Edge of the Wedge?

How can they tell a vehicle is a Diesel? Is there something on the tax disk? Or do they check on a database?

As a government agency the council will have enhanced access to the DVLA database which contains all sorts of information about vehicles and their drivers!

There is even a portal that us mere mortals can access giving basic information about a vehicle, its engine, colour and fuel, etc. It also tells you when the Tax and MOT runs out, which is handy!

DVLA Vehicle Enquiry