Gove and the UK Education System ?

[Chevvyf1]

I for one am STEAMING at the Ofsted changes over the past few years.

I have many friends, 4 within a mile who were all Head Teachers and GAVE UP because of 1) Admin not Teaching ethos of Ofsted and 2) Totally unachievable Targets set for ALL Children when half had no chance of hitting Targets at all - mostly due to Parenting/The Lack of Parenting and lack of Parents supporting School and the Education for the FUTURE.

1 Head Teacher gave up in December ! Not allowed except going long term sick ... but he had had enough of the Parents !


Many of you may know THIS, that a childs brain pares back at age 3 to 3 and a half year - (now 2 and a half year to 3 years as children CAN develop much quicker ... if stimulated by a "Good or Outstanding" Learning Environment. In Support of this FACT I uploaded a page from one of Professor Robert Winston's books




Children who are not raised in a stimulating environment or have "Learning Difficulties" (for example Autistic and other Special Education needs (SEN) children etc) , actually lose the ABILITY to learn much after the first paring back of the brain ...

Many English children looked after by a Foreign Au Pair/Nanny cannot learn to speak many words - as they do not understand the English Language delivered with a heavy accent - making words different from their English
speaking Parents!

Of course it is even more difficult for Children who are "Foreign Language" at schools here where English is an Additional Language for them - can they be educated in English, when they are learning to speak English ?

Our Country is "Going to Hell in a hand cart" fast

Children today who are able to "ENJOY an at home, caring Mum with whom they do Learn with Mother" are most privileged - far more than those with a Nanny/Au Pair ...


Many years ago, when Economics was important in my PG education ... I recall Japan having No Mineral Wealth (we in England have Oil ; Coal ; minerals ; Flint etc) and most was lost after the War - but they Invested most seriously in the Future Generations - EDUCATION. Germany did the same 7/10 have more than 2 degrees. THIS is what stimulates their development of Manufacturing and a GDP - Whereas the UK ...

in the past educated Doctors for the Rest of the world

in the past educated the IT people of the USA and Japan etc

Where are we going ?

What happens if children with huge debts for Degrees go to live/work abroad ? is the Debt wiped down after a number of years ?

If so I expect thats what they will do ... Its sensible anyway

Please feel free to air your views/opinions/ experiences and RANT

[Zuiko]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

Let's just say I believe Gove is to education what icebergs were to the Titanic.

[Wally]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

Taken from the BBC

My question is... "Has Gove missed the point of his own argument?"

"Education Secretary Michael Gove has defended his decision to replace Baroness Sally Morgan as head of school inspectorate Ofsted.

Mr Gove told Andrew Marr that Baroness Morgan was a "fantastic person" and there was always a "need to refresh" heads of public bodies."

"The move has been criticised as a political decision, and drawn a 'furious' response from Liberal Democrat Schools Minister David Laws.

Mr Gove denied a partisan agenda, saying the "only pattern you can see is appointment on merit."

My answer is... It would seem to my feeble mind Gove's argument leaves him in an indefensible position not once, but twice?

[Olybirder]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

Somebody close to me works at a school which has just received a terrible Ofsted report (I am deliberately being vague as it has not yet been made public.) Everybody working at the school is devastated and bewildered. The school has long had a reputation as one of the best in area and the report seems to be completely at odds with that.

Now the demoralised staff have to work out what to do in the future to turn things around. No doubt some parents will remove their children, which will have financial implications for the school. The popular and respected head teacher is at her wits end and is attempting to work out a plan to improve the situation in the future. All this is based on a one-and-a-half day inspection with the inspectors sitting in on random lessons for 20 minutes and assessing the teachers' competence from that. Strangely enough, some of the brightest and keenest teachers received heavy criticism whereas others who were generally considered rather less competent have been praised up to the eyeballs.

In a few days time the report will go public and all hell will break loose. It doesn't seem a very good way to judge the performance of schools, although I agree that they have to be assessed in some way.

Ron

[OM USer]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

Children who are not raised in a stimulating environment ... actually lose the ABILITY to learn much after the first paring back of the brain

I'n not sure on the specifics of this but I do agree with Chevvy that it is up to the parents to create a stimulating environment for their children. I could read before I started school - this should be the norm. How many children can do this these days?

... No doubt some parents will remove their children, which will have financial implications for the school.

Is it that easy to remove your children? Here the local schools are full and you would need to travel right across the borough to find an available place elsewhere. In fact when applying to schools for normal entry (at age 5 and 11) you are not guaranteed your nearest school... or the next nearest... or the next. I'm not sure that those financial pressures to perform are neccessarily there when empty places can be filled the same day.

[Iansky]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

There are two issues that I see contributing to the problem, one is the continuous meddling by politicians who think they are experts (or who listen to "advisors" who are out of touch with current schooling issues) - they need to spend time in real schools to understand how the schools work and the problems teachers face.

Secondly, the biggeset (in my mind) contributing factor to schools and discipline is firstly the total lack of discipline at home where children are in a family that may not work, receive benefits and have no incentive to work, sit at home all day drinking / smoking / swearing and being violent in front ot / to their children then wonder why the child fails at school ( There are many unemployed who are not like this and cannot genuinely work, alas a greater majority that fit this criteria).

This is further compounded by those parents who abuse and sometimes use violence against the teachers who may have restrained a violent pupil to maintain order.

We have completely lost it and in turn good educators who no longer wish to handle the stress of violence from pupils/parents, endless reporting procedures, targets that are not achieveable for all and an environment constantly being changed by poltical meddling.

I consider myself lucky to have been educated in an environment / time where respect for teachers was paramount, teamwork and learning was promoted and fun and parents maintained discipline at home.

Alas, times have changed and endless "Batches of professional politicians" with little or no experience of the real professions / business are dictating to people who know better.

Sad state of affairs and explains why the UK has the highest percentage of "Dunces" in Europe!!

Children suffer through leaders failure..............again!

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

Somebody close to me works at a school which has just received a terrible Ofsted report (I am deliberately being vague as it has not yet been made public.) Everybody working at the school is devastated and bewildered. The school has long had a reputation as one of the best in area and the report seems to be completely at odds with that.

Now the demoralised staff have to work out what to do in the future to turn things around. No doubt some parents will remove their children, which will have financial implications for the school. The popular and respected head teacher is at her wits end and is attempting to work out a plan to improve the situation in the future. All this is based on a one-and-a-half day inspection with the inspectors sitting in on random lessons for 20 minutes and assessing the teachers' competence from that. Strangely enough, some of the brightest and keenest teachers received heavy criticism whereas others who were generally considered rather less competent have been praised up to the eyeballs.

In a few days time the report will go public and all hell will break loose. It doesn't seem a very good way to judge the performance of schools, although I agree that they have to be assessed in some way.

Ron

Ron, I personally have experienced Ofsted Twits (being polite) my Ofsted Inspector asked, "Can she (pointing a tall, well built/large boned girl here) count to 13 ?

I replied, "she is 3 years old" !

The Inspector, in a ratty tone said, "I asked if she could count to 13? "
I replied, "I do not know, she can count to 8 and count 8 items but the EYFS Curriculum sets the Goal to Counting to 10 for the AUGUST following their Fifth birthday, I think - doesnt it ?"

SHE DID NOT KNOW THAT ! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY ATYPICAL OF OFSTED INSPECTORS ! *rseoles

We also have to get the children ready for lunch ; One does the chores of loo visits and washing hands and nappies before lunch - we put the TV on to give them freetime/tv to watch while the others are being got "ready" ... one of us is plating up lunch/getting out tables; cutlery; bibs; rubber grip mats for their plates and chairs and the other - WE FAILED "to talk to the children and involve them in pairing and grouping cutlery ; mats & bibs and counting ..."

Nothing to do with the fact that the children had "a busy morning, showing what they can do like Monkeys in a zoo ... for the Inspector who did not know the EYFS Curriculum" so we gave them a break and did not interrupt them watching a FAV tv prog.

It is almost IMPOSSIBLE (or was IMPOSSIBLE until very recently) to get a Re Inspection or CORRECTION TO AN COMPLETE ERROR BY THE INSPECTOR as mine above ...

What the Inspectors says/writes goes to boot I was told, "surely you did not expect OUTSTANDING AGAIN ? hardly anyone gets that ever"

and thats the organisation ! Proving that most child facilities in this country are FAILED or FAILING - it keeps them in Grant and Jobs !

I belong to the Hampshire Childcare Network, Was Inspected every 6 week for 18 months to "Get the Equivalent of BSi Accredited to the Network" and did a degree in Early Years Education & Childcare and lots of extra courses as I wanted to know more ... Autistic Spectrum Disorder ; Dyslexia/Dyscalc/ Dyspraxia ; Special Education Needs etc., and had a year on A Child of Our Time with Prof. Robert Winston - here we are 1 in 3 in Hampshire of the highest quality childcare and no one else does the Outings to new learning Environments we do ! and we are 1 of the top 100 in England.

Thats probably why the Inspector wanted to knock us down from Outstanding!

Infact, they are not as intelligent as an ********* ...

From Teachers ; Nursery Staff I have met on my University Courses and Private Sector Courses Ofsted are the same across the board !

Teachers are looking and training for "other jobs" in their droves ! They ar enot prepared to be pushed about as they are by Gove & Ofsted !

Childminders and Nursery Staff are leaving/Retiring sick to the neck with Ofsted and Admin like you have NEVER seen! To what point ? paper Pushers and Govt. Quangos ... jobs for idiot politicians like Liz TRUSS who is "making MORE great Childcare ... By increasing numbers she hopes we shall take on one more child and reduce our day fee to all - so we work harder for the same money ! GET REAL MS TRUSS ...

TRUSS is making "Agencies for Childminders .. the Agency will fill their places ...oh yeah! lets see Parents pay for that without a choice ? of childminder ! ... so they will be employed by the Agency ... Thats great and = Maternity and Sick pay same a Temporary workers and Holiday Pay too "! Ha ! Ha! Watch that space ... a big BLACK hole is EMERGING ms TRUSS ! for you to fall in ...

Gove will have few Teachers ; Few Head Teacher ; Fewer Nursery and Childminder places and less of our population mothers working at all and UK needing more immigrants to fill the jobs Parents will not take because of inadequate childcare ...

BRING in the Army ... oops they are all at Somerset Levels

Rant over ... Retirement is soo great ... just the right time for me !

[Glee]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

I do wonder if Gove is susceptible to becoming educated, he might do better with policy?

[Greytop]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

I couldn't agree more with pretty much all the comments, it seems Gove is pretty much universally disliked (I'm being polite) and for good reason.
I know this very well as my good lady is a long suffering teacher.

[ringneck]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

[QUOTE
Children who are not raised in a stimulating environment or have "Learning Difficulties" (for example Autistic and other Special Education needs (SEN) children etc) , actually lose the ABILITY to learn much after the first paring back of the brain ...

My brother and myself were not surprisingly raised in the same environment- we are 15 months apart.
Not being able to know what was going on in his head but as for myself I liked attending school and liked the lessons but always did not enjoy the break times for some reason...I think now I must have found it hard to make friends.
Anyway my point is that I failed the 11+ and went to the Secondary Modern and he went to the Grammar school.
I left with one O Level and had hardly read a book with a very limited vocabulary and he got many O levels and could speak French German Latin as well as being able to stand up and speak in front of people...a task I never have done (apart from short speech at daughters wedding-nightmare).
He went on to a successful career at the than Post Office and retired 15 years before time...I had a manual job and am still working and need to past the time.
Now why did this wide difference occur.....everything was the same up to age 10-11 (even though he was in the top classes at primary school)...but the gap became a chasm after that.

I suppose I am saying it does not matter about the input at home and a natural talent will come to the fore in the long run.
Keith

[sponner]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

It is easy to knock Gove, in fact it is easy to knock any politician as they are mostly opportunistic ****'s

however.

I do think that Gove believes in what he is doing ( I don't know enough to agree or disagree with his ideas).

Why is it wrong to aspire to raising standards in the state system using the more successful private sector as a target, my kids went to state school only because there was no way I could afford fees at any private school.

An example -

Where I live there are two high schools, both state with the same or similar demographics for the pupils.
One CONSISTENTLY gets far higher exam marks than the other, not by a mark or two but real meaningful differences.

This has been the case for years.

I have heard this said by a person responsible for hiring seasonal workers at a large local employer, "We always try to employ kids from ***** school rather than *** as they have a better work ethic and cause us less problems.(the preferred school gets the better results)

The preferred school is a state funded catholic school. Leaving religion out of it (most of the kids are no more religious than me) if they can produce HUGELY better results year on year there is something wrong with the system.

[Greytop]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

I would argue that it matters immensely that children have supporting and nurturing environment at home, my wife and her colleagues see the stark evidence every single day.
We are all individuals of course so it shouldn't be a surprise that we all develop/progress at different rates (and in different ways) but that doesn't change the importance of supportive parenting, the evidence is overwhelming.

[Greytop]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

It is easy to knock Gove, in fact it is easy to knock any politician as they are mostly opportunistic ****'s

however.

I do think that Gove believes in what he is doing ( I don't know enough to agree or disagree with his ideas).

Why is it wrong to aspire to raising standards in the state system using the more successful private sector as a target, my kids went to state school only because there was no way I could afford fees at any private school.

An example -

Where I live there are two high schools, both state with the same or similar demographics for the pupils.
One CONSISTENTLY gets far higher exam marks than the other, not by a mark or two but real meaningful differences.

This has been the case for years.

I have heard this said by a person responsible for hiring seasonal workers at a large local employer, "We always try to employ kids from ***** school rather than *** as they have a better work ethic and cause us less problems.(the preferred school gets the better results)

The preferred school is a state funded catholic school. Leaving religion out of it (most of the kids are no more religious than me) if they can produce HUGELY better results year on year there is something wrong with the system.

I don't think Gove has a monopoly on wanting to improve standards, I'm sure almost all teachers, heads, governors and support staff aspire to improve their schools in a rounded way.
What's really at issue here is the methodology Gove is employing to try and achieve it.

[Glee]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

I think you make a fair point Keith that there are some with natural talent who will always do well. If you do a graph of academic attainment you end up with a bell curve distribution.Most people are in the middle or to the right or left of average, a good place to be, as you are similar to most of the population plus or minus a couple of points statistically. Then there are a few people who have serious difficulty in attaining and a few who are very talented.

However I think the real question is not about raw ability, but whether or not the education system is geared up and sensitive to the different learning needs of children and young people so that they might achieve their potential

My own biography for my school days is similar to yours, I flunked my 11+, my brother passed! he had a grammar school education, I had comprehensive. However it ended differently, my school had no optimism in me or my potential based on a daft one shot test, as an adult learner, I have a BA and a BSC honours , two nursing qualifications and few other bits and bobs and I have been a senior manager. My brother is also successfully but no more so.

I think schools can beat the **** out of some peoples self confidence, a lesson I learnt once I left school. I fought back and learnt something about me the school system did not see.

Gove will only succeed in reproducing the same bell curve graph however he calls it, the genuine improvements would come from teachers on how best to help all children with their learning needs and styles without being distracted by meaningless government targets

Best

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Gove and the UK Education System ?

Many Many Years ago, I was working on a City Financial project with BT based in Blackfrairs & Martlesham In London and I needed 3 Techie Staff with various programming experience - each on about £25,k then. I was INSTRUCTED by My Director and HR "to employ 6 from the Local Labour Exchange and pay a MAX of £12k each".

In those days, Government Enterprises (! an oxymoron if ever there was one) we to "mop up" the unemployed where possible.

Can you imagine the quality of those from the Local Labour Exchange ?

Now, one may wonder, how a "Government Enterprise" (THEN late 1970's) LET ALONE NOW, could ever succeed, ??? duh ! ??? profitably with high customer service and satisfaction of Service Users and Service Providers.

PS have you seen the latest on the Governments Enterprise (in Banking )

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26014943

Will you ALL rush out to buy shares (in a ship with so many holes in it, only the politicians hot air is keeping it afloat !