Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

[Chevvyf1]

So who wins ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-24624934

Will Alex find a Buyer for the "Plant?" ?
maybe the Chinese will come in ?

Will the Union put forward an agreement to Pay & Pension cuts now ?
will the Owners consider or accept ?

Will Eastern workers move up to Scotland to fill the jobs, as cheaper labour ?

Is this why Mr. Blair devalued "Great Britain" to "Britain" ?


Once, we were GREAT ! In Aircraft manufacturing, I know personally the devastation Weybridge; Hatfield ; Bristol ; Warton and all the other British Aerospace sites, which suffered with closures and the "Aerospatiele'" Group being formed ...


Once we were great in Motor Car ; Ships and Boats and Trains (only Bombadier ? spelling ? left in UK now)

We still export many of the BEST Science and Technology degree holders and Doctors - all around the world

What should Britain Do, to be Great Britain again ?

[alfbranch]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

Chevvy
I thought they wanted to be independent?


My guess is they sack them all and offer them a job next year on new terms.

[jdal]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

So who wins ?
...

What should Britain Do, to be Great Britain again ?

1. How would you go about doing this then?

2. Was it ever?

3 Would it be a good thing?



Edit - Just watching Paxman interviewing Russell Brand. Russell has the answers

[IainMacD]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

I thought they wanted to be independent?

they?
he

[gregles]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

It's all politics and it looks like the thumb screws are being attached to the naughty child

[David Morison]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

Just watching Paxman interviewing Russell Brand. Russell has the answers

No. He has identified the problem, as have many of us but he doesn't actually have an intelligent solution!

David

[alfbranch]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

they?
he

Well thats up to you to tell the idiot.

It's all politics and it looks like the thumb screws are being attached to the naughty child

Yeah a nasty situation IMO.

[bilbo]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

This must surely be one of the nails in the Independence coffin.

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

Alf, not THAT much Independent

BUT TUPE may be enforced or even threatened (that is doing the same job @ same place = claim continuous employment for redundancy; sick leave etc., I have been involved in a case and these claims with Alcatel taking over Pirelli (underwater cables) down in Southampton - where Pirelli "let go, employees" and Alcatel buying that part of Pirelli - not thinking thought it a bonus to employ people who did THAT job for the previous employer although the Union backed down in that case, it caused shutdown by owners Alcatel = jobs lost; Govt. Taxes & revenue lost to European new site for cable laying


John aka Jdal - good points

1. How would you go about doing this then?

2. Was it ever?

3 Would it be a good thing?


I do actually believe in and, love my Country ! Europeans and Americans are envious of our 1) FREE state schools 2) NHS 3) History and Culture 4) our general "lifestyle" and these are 4 prime reasons why many decide NOT to Emigrate to Aus ; USA ; and why so many, regularly arrive via our Ports and Airports to work and live here !

1. We have to get the Imports down and Exports up to balance the books. That is going to be very difficult because, China for one sees "US the UK" as a great Investment Return Opportunity ... not just power stations, but in so many areas of "regular mundane purchases" most of UK people make every month! The Oil Sheiks via their Airlines and Cash rich/low yields are going for countries who are poor and 3rd world, eg the Seychelles ... for the potential expensive holiday income, from the UK; Europe and USA

To succeed, these "Grangemouth eruptions" have to cease. People have to realise how VERY lucky they are. Salaries and Benefits have continued to escalate for business and, profits and other costs have had to come down Investors are not happy with returns and will pull out. Modern Business Models have significantly lower salaries, in real terms, to 20 years ago for many positions (many of my friends are on 25% of their 20 years ago salary ! )

NOW it seems that the Union Strike threat, countered with SHUTDOWN may, just MAY get to a profitable situation for continued investment by the Investors

Because so many employees are totally devastated by what can come next, after shutdown.

2. Was it ever ? Maybe you do not think so ? Many believe Germany is better off then UK/USA in many areas of lifestyle - for losing the "War" Germany is STILL a leading manufacturer. Japan lead the world too until its own "crisis fuelled by the Copper banking downfall" - but Japan is again UP there.

John, would you prefer the "lifestyle package of another Country ?" Maybe India ? China ? Eastern Block Countries - I am just browsing through the masses who come from key Countries ?


3. Well, if it is not a good thing ... how would our country be to live in ? NO NHS ; NO Free Education ; NO State Benefits for those who need this support ??? Our country would be more like those aforementioned so many are coming from less of a Lifestyle and more of a grind

[jdal]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

...
3. Well, if it is not a good thing ... how would our country be to live in ? NO NHS ; NO Free Education ; NO State Benefits for those who need this support ??? Our country would be more like those aforementioned so many are coming from less of a Lifestyle and more of a grind

I agree with much of what you're saying, it's this concept of "going back" somewhere I disagree with, and with your statement.. "Is this why Mr. Blair devalued "Great Britain" to "Britain". I don't know where you get that from.

As I see it there are at least 3 interpretations of the word "Great" in "Great Britain". There's the fact it's the name of one of the islands, there's the fact that once we were the most powerful country in the world and there's the fact that we believe our country is Great because of it's institutions and many positive achievements. It's that middle definition that causes the problems - the right wing politicians seems to be under the illusion that there was a time when all was wonderful and the fact we aren't there is all Tony Blair's/Gordon Brown's fault. I call BS on that one. The world is a different place and we need to get on with it.

For hundreds of years western society has been moving in a more humane and liberal direction. Despite the efforts of the "establishment", the movement has been unstoppable and I believe will remain so. Of course there are problems, there have been regressions, but over time the "liberals" are indisputably winning the battle by gradual and continual pressure. No revolutions, just the inexorable will of people. It has created the NHS, a system of caring for the needy in society, a justice system which stands up to any in the world, the hope of prosperity for all. These things I will fight to defend and I will do my bit to maintain the pressure. There are no quick fixes.

So, I say, go back???? Why?? Where to???

Oh, and can we have Angela Merkle as PM please?

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

I agree with much of what you're saying, it's this concept of "going back" somewhere I disagree with, and with your statement.. "Is this why Mr. Blair devalued "Great Britain" to "Britain". I don't know where you get that from.

As I see it there are at least 3 interpretations of the word "Great" in "Great Britain". There's the fact it's the name of one of the islands, there's the fact that once we were the most powerful country in the world and there's the fact that we believe our country is Great because of it's institutions and many positive achievements. It's that middle definition that causes the problems - the right wing politicians seems to be under the illusion that there was a time when all was wonderful and the fact we aren't there is all Tony Blair's/Gordon Brown's fault. I call BS on that one. The world is a different place and we need to get on with it.

For hundreds of years western society has been moving in a more humane and liberal direction. Despite the efforts of the "establishment", the movement has been unstoppable and I believe will remain so. Of course there are problems, there have been regressions, but over time the "liberals" are indisputably winning the battle by gradual and continual pressure. No revolutions, just the inexorable will of people. It has created the NHS, a system of caring for the needy in society, a justice system which stands up to any in the world, the hope of prosperity for all. These things I will fight to defend and I will do my bit to maintain the pressure. There are no quick fixes.

So, I say, go back???? Why?? Where to???

Oh, and can we have Angela Merkle as PM please?

John, I do totally agree with you. It is not about going back ... but onward and upward and forward - as you say

I want Britain/the UK to be GREAT again

The reason Angela Merkle is so great ... is, she has no balls to lose and war is not her answer

have to go - back tonight ! late

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

Grangemouth is not the only oil refinery in the UK, but it is an important one. (There are other plants at Fawley, Milford Haven and Teeside that I can think of offhand.)

However, if Grangemeouth did close it would almost certainly sound the death knell for Scottish independence, would increase fuel prices, and risk disruption of fuel supplies to Scotland, Northern England and probably Ireland as well. The additional cost of bringing fuel supplies up to Scotland from Teeside would also have an unwelcome impact on the economy there.

With regard to other industries, I'm afraid we seem to be our own worst enemies; for whilst we have some of the best engineers and scientists in the world, we also seem to have some of the very worst, short sighted management and government.

Worse still in my view is the fact that the majority of our school leavers are totally disinterested in both science and engineering, whilst only a tiny proportion will ever gain the qualifications and interest needed to excel in these fields.

Unfortunately, 'engineering' has become a dirty word in our culture, and is all too often confused with numbskull car mechanics and fitters wandering around with oily rags in their pockets. The result is that we have very few people in this country who are genuinely capable of working in these fields unless everything is numbered for them; which is what happens in most car repair workshops. (Otherwise known as a 'Standard Operating Procedure'.)

As an example, we do still build ships in this country, but the welders are mostly Polish; not because they are paid any less, but because there are far too few 'coded' British welders about.

However, we do have a phenomenally successful car manufacturing industry which is responsible for a large proportion of our exports. (Jaguar Land-Rover, for example, is responsible for 10% of our exports to Asia.)

We are also building trains again, and the new Hitachi plant at Newton Aycliffe is expected to export some of its production once orders for the ECML have been fulfilled.

Crucially though, JLR is only successful because of long-term Indian investment. British investors are only interested if they are guaranteed a return on their investment in the same quarter. American investors (notably Ford) want more than their pound of flesh before they have even invested, whilst the Japanese, famously, look 50 years or more ahead.

So how did we get here? Lack of long-term, long-sighted investment is clearly a major problem in our country, but we must also accept that the Trades Unions have inflicted mortal damage on many of our traditional industries. Indeed, some evidently continue to do so.

As a result it has become more profitable, and reliable to source goods from overseas. Sadly, modern designs and production methods mean that there is far less scope for fiddling with things and fixing them than there was fifty years ago. Even electrical appliances come with plugs already moulded on, so we have collectively lost our ability to understand how things work, and we have little interest in finding out.

[Ulfric M Douglas]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

If all the trade unions voluntarily disbanded, our countries would prosper all the more.

Unions were valuable when the cotton mills and the mines were killing people,
now I view them as an expensive hindrance to sensible economics.

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

If all the trade unions voluntarily disbanded, our countries would prosper all the more.

Unions were valuable when the cotton mills and the mines were killing people,
now I view them as an expensive hindrance to sensible economics.

I don't know if I would go that far.

I believe there is still a place for trades unions, but all too often disputes seem to be motivated by the egos of union leaders rather than in the interests of their members.

Unfortunately most union leaders have no idea how business works, and have no interest in recognising when industrial action will only hasten the demise of a business. Arthur Scargill was/is a textbook example of this.

Without the coalminers strike of the 1980's I daresay UK coal mining (and with it steel production) would have struggled on for another twenty years or so, but King Arthur's contribution only served to put the final nails in the coal industry's coffin.

[photo_owl]

Re: Scotland to lose 10,000 jobs

If all the trade unions voluntarily disbanded, our countries would prosper all the more.

Unions were valuable when the cotton mills and the mines were killing people,
now I view them as an expensive hindrance to sensible economics.

I actually beleive that they (most of the unions) are both well intentioned and an appropriate element of a well structured long term economy

but

they now feel that the only thing of value that they must fight for is final salary pensions which have become the ultimate 'hindrance to sensible economics'; the cost of any real salary rise proposed within a business has become something like 10% to the employees as a gross rise and 90% to long serving employee's existing pension rights (or worse - I was quoted 96% of the cost of the last Fire Service settlement when there was industrial action in respect of 'current salary levels' was instantly accrued in respect of past service rights.

the unions are litterally fighting to the death over this one issue over, and over again - the companies (and some services) will die; it's just a question of when.

when most financial services companies have gone through the phases of -

non-contributory
contributory
seriously contributory (15%)
closed to new entrants
closed to future accrual

for their final salary schemes it's becomes rather scary that the only ones left are either publicly funded (or not) or 'important' services...