Youngsters Employment ?

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Nigel, I don't decry any degree, from red brick or not. My comment really was to 'correct', so I thought, the thinking that it was the Labour gov that introduced 'phony' degrees. And in my book, a degree is a degree, no matter what is studied, law or golf course design.

I wouldn't 'blame' either government for 'phoney' degrees, whatever you and I might think those are. The introduction of new degree subjects is just a gradual evolution of the education system to cater for the needs of a diverse society that increasingly demands certificates and qualifications for jobs that didn't previously warrant any higher qualification at all.

Where I believe government went wrong was to set a target of sending 50% of all school leavers to university. In my view that was little more than a short sighted effort to cut youth unemployment figures (rather than cutting youth unemployment as such). We can now see that it was neither realistic or affordable.

Had university attendance remained at late 1980's / early 1990's levels I doubt that government would have needed to introduce the current tuition fees, although we will never know for sure. On the other hand, why should those who were not fortunate enough to get into university (and probably earn lower wages as a result) pay for others to study for degrees and earn higher wages?

The fact is, everything costs!

[al_kaholik]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Those people I know who came from "Comps" actually thrived and overall did better than those at the Grammar for the full term when they came to join the VI form.

Yes the education system isn't fantastic, but most of the people I know who made their choices and were determined have got to somewhere like where they were aiming. Employed, engaged and being the best they can regardless of schooling, background, economic state or government (past and present).

[Wally]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

... most of the people I know who made their choices and were determined have got to somewhere like where they were aiming. Employed, engaged and being the best they can regardless of schooling, background, economic state or government (past and present).

My point precisely. As said, I came out of the education system in the 50's with only the clothes I stood in. Looking back, I achieved more or less what I wanted. In life, as in everything else, the only thing that will hold you back is YOU.

It would seem yet another cock-up is being put into the pipeline - BBC News Item - Curriculum 'to match world's best' A revised national curriculum for schools in England has been published, with the aim of catching up with the world's best education systems.

According to Gove, the pupils need stretching? I could think of another group that needs stretching... preferably on the end of a rope. Three guesses and the first two don't count.

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I do not envy any Govt. trying to find an Education for "Children" en masse

One-size fits all does not work


By age 4 you can identify the children who, in the main, shall go far. The have sense and can make sense of so many "things in life" without Adults explaining it. They do not need Independent Schools - they will shine through the darkest mud !

These are the children the Teaches prepare "Get along with it" work for - far above the rest of the class who needs lots of "Support".

Then there are the "main class" many of whom shall do exceedingly well.

Finally, their is the lower group of a class, many of whom do need significant support.



So, can you imagine this group are horse riders ! attending a jumping class. The Teacher (Instructor) assesses the class.

Some have very fit and well muscled up horses.

Some have fat/grass gut horses with "upside down" necks (not worked or fit)

When asked to ride, clockwise around the sand school (menage') or field and transition to the pace the Teacher calls for ... its a nightmare Most go into trot but are bobbing along in the saddle "on the wrong diagonal" which is very uncomfortable for the horse

As they are asked to transition from Trot to Canter, most strike off on the wrong lead (the riders weight was in the wrong place!) ... as a horse strikes off into Canter, simply, if going clockwise, the right foreleg should be seen to lead (although, technically, the hind leads the stride! )

Now the Teacher calls for "riding the horse up to your hands with seat and legs, into a short and round Canter stride" ... Most have no idea what is being asked of them.

So, if they cannot control the length of the Canter stride - HOW can they jump a course of show jumps which are set out in a numbered course, with a specific number of short or long strides in measured distance, between each ??? ... they are going to crash through the fences !


This is what each Teacher is faced with, with a new class of children. It takes about 6 weeks to assess each one. The Riding Teacher can quickly assess 60 in an hour.


Of the Horse & Riders, some have a talented horse/pony ; some riders can follow instructions and ask questions as to "HOW" and constantly want to know "HOW CAN I Be GREAT at this" and whether they have the support of Parents time and funds, or not they shall succeed - often by working their way to rides and lessons.


How many in a class do this ?


The Govt. is making a plan to Educate MILLIONS of children and include Special Education Needs children too

The Planning is horrendous !

Latest I read last week is "... we now need to assess at start of Primary School not end of Year R ...

http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/article/1187290/ofsted-chief-calls-review-early-years-assessment?DCMP=EMC-CONNurseryWorldUpdate&bulletin=nursery-world-update-bulletin

Funny right now this is on the BBC News ! its history


Primary Schools already KNOW which Childminders' send well rounded Children to school having prepared them in line with the Early Years Education which Nurseries and a few QUALIFIED Childminders' provide on behalf of the Govt.

Most school also know full well the Nurseries who send children inadequately prepared for school, often the Nursery was unable to help the Parents sufficiently ...


Now make a big decision, if your child of 3,4,5 years going to get more or less education from Nursery (in a class of 26-30 children) or with a Qualified Childminder in a class of 3-6 children) ?


I am afraid to report that The Childminder option, is less available and costs lots more !

So, my friends, the Grammer of Comps starts much earlier than 11 plus

and the Govt. don't even realize this, yet !

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

urmmm! I have just received this "NEWS" about how critical Early Years Education is with Strong Leaders

http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/article/1188934/ofsted-strong-leadership-early-years-key-ready-school?DCMP=EMC-CONNurseryWorldUpdate&bulletin=nursery-world-update-bulletin

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

urmmm! I have just received this "NEWS" about how critical Early Years Education is with Strong Leaders

http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/articl...pdate-bulletin

The problem is that, in my experience, the brightest children in any particular class are often seen as an inconvenience by their teachers, who are more concerned about those at the bottom of the class. As a result the brightest children often fail to receive the help and support that they need to achieve their full potential. More than one teacher that I have spoken to on this matter seems to regard this as a form of 'social levelling'.

As an example, the Head of Music at our son's school sent him to the Head Teacher because she caught him practicing Bach instead of taking part in a lesson learning where the notes were on a piano keyboard. She was downright obstructive from this point forward, claiming that his music was 'elitist', and had no place in a secondary modern. She also argued that encouraging him at his own level would be unfair on other pupils who didn't receive private music tuition.

Ultimately we were left with no option but to pay for a proper education, which is why I am so disillusioned by the present system and the political leanings of so many school teachers.

[sponner]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I went to a comprehensive and underachieved, not the school's fault particularly but there was little in the way of discipline and follow up on missed home-work etc was half hearted to say the least. I took full advantage of this.

That said the school I went to was one with a better reputation, god knows what the bad ones were like.

I entered the world of work as an officer in the Royal Navy - here the majority of my peers were educated at public school. I am under no illusion, they were better prepared, both academically and socially, for a leadership role.

When we had kids I would have liked to have sent them to public school, financially this wasn't viable. I did the next best thing, moved house and had them baptised as Catholics to ensure a place at one the non-fee paying school in the county with the best academic record. I appreciate that this was a blatantly cynical attempt to manipulate the system.

One of the large, local employers employs a lot of teenagers in seasonal, non-academic, menial roles. I have had it from the horses mouth that the kids from the school to which I am referring are the preferred option for them as they have a better wok ethic and are more reliable.

The point I am ramblingly trying to make is this -
This school takes kids from the same socio-economic background as the "vanilla" comprehensive 200 yards away.
It consistently achieves academic results that are far, far higher.
Its pupils are regarded as better rounded individuals for the world of work.

Why? ( OK that is a bit rhetorical the answer is higher expectations, more discipline, more homework, more engagement with parents etc)

More importantly why are schools allowed to consistently fail our children whatever system is in place.

[OM USer]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I too have come across the situation where a child on a borderline top B grade is not given the extra help to make that an A; apparently it is "not worth it". Well it is to the child.

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I too have come across the situation where a child on a borderline top B grade is not given the extra help to make that an A; apparently it is "not worth it". Well it is to the child.

I think you'll find they get more brownie points for helping a U grade student achieve D 's than they will helping a B grade student achieve an A or A*.

But when the D grade student needs a doctor, a dentist or a good solicitor (not many of those around mind you ) will he/she be looking for a professional who left school with a string of D's, or one who earned A's and A*'s?

Edit: However the D grade student may well turn out to be a very good tradesman.

We need to celebrate and encourage diversity in schools rather than trying to stamp it out by dumbing down those who happen to be particularly good at something.

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

The problem is that, in my experience, the brightest children in any particular class are often seen as an inconvenience by their teachers, who are more concerned about those at the bottom of the class. As a result the brightest children often fail to receive the help and support that they need to achieve their full potential. More than one teacher that I have spoken to on this matter seems to regard this as a form of 'social levelling'.

As an example, the Head of Music at our son's school sent him to the Head Teacher because she caught him practicing Bach instead of taking part in a lesson learning where the notes were on a piano keyboard. She was downright obstructive from this point forward, claiming that his music was 'elitist', and had no place in a secondary modern. She also argued that encouraging him at his own level would be unfair on other pupils who didn't receive private music tuition.

Ultimately we were left with no option but to pay for a proper education, which is why I am so disillusioned by the present system and the political leanings of so many school teachers.

Teachers are supposed to meet the "unique needs of every pupil, at the highest or lowest level" !

I fear that many Teachers in the State Schools have an attitude against anyone with a better chance & opportunities - it is out and out prejudice ! We should see lots more LITIGATION AGAINST THESE INDIVIDUAL TEACHERS!

How nice for you son that you support him to the hilt ! Don't think of the fees as an expensive education - if you left him where he was THAT WOULD COST FAR MORE in the long term

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I too have come across the situation where a child on a borderline top B grade is not given the extra help to make that an A; apparently it is "not worth it". Well it is to the child.

DISGUSTING ! Is there a Parents Litigation group ? I fear such Parents would be in the minority in most schools and the Teachers think if you want better - pay for it

Teachers are terribly upset having all these "Objectives set for them to achieve" in the real world we all have these and no long holidays ! and held to account !

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

How nice for you son that you support him to the hilt ! Don't think of the fees as an expensive education - if you left him where he was THAT WOULD COST FAR MORE in the long term

Had we been unemployed single parents I'm sure there would have been much more support; but when you work long hours and pay taxes (to keep those on benefits in the style to which they have become accustomed) nobody gives a monkeys. Taxpayers in this country are just taken for granted.

However, there is a happy ending to this story as our son starts at conservatoire in the autumn, so all the effort has been worthwhile.

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Had we been unemployed single parents I'm sure there would have been much more support; but when you work long hours and pay taxes (to keep those on benefits in the style to which they have become accustomed) nobody gives a monkeys. Taxpayers in this country are just taken for granted.

However, there is a happy ending to this story as our son starts at conservatoire in the autumn, so all the effort has been worthwhile.

WoW ! What an achievement How very proud you must be

[LMGruchy]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I failed my 11plus, but the headmaster appealed and I went to a technical school, which meant I got away from the set of bullies who were making my life a misery. After "O" Levels I had to switch to a comprehensive as my parents had moved, but that comprehensive was big enough to offer the combination of "A" Levels that I wished to take. But then, it had been asn excellent Grammar School and still had the same ethos.

My hubby went to what sounds like useless comprehensive schools. Useless in that ambition was a dirty word.

We both went to university, which is where we met.

In my year only 2 people got Firsts. I worked long hours foor my 2 i, but the joibs I did never paid well. If I had a student debt I would have been unable to afford a house.

Now I have two children, including an exceptional child with a very good degree but no job, and the jobs she's applying for are either part time or rubbish pay. So that was 4 years well spent, then.

I have another child who could have gone to university, but it costs too much and we decided it just wasn't worth it because she doesn't have that hunger for knowledge. She's happy, very happy as an apprentice.

I am frightened for both their futures.

[sponner]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I am frightened for both their futures.

I know that feeling, the days of stumbling into a decent job (as my generation did) are over.