Youngsters Employment ?

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

So you're quite comfortable with consigning children to an educational scrap-heap at the age of 11, if they don't pass the 11 plus?

Jim

No I'm not; but given the choice I would rather consign 50% to the scrap heap than 100%; which is what we seem to have under the present 'comprehensive' system.

I would of course prefer that all 100% of those children who wanted it received a first class education, (of course some would rather not be educated at all), but that option seems to have been thrown out of the window long ago.

[Zuiko]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I would say this is exactly why the two-tier system should be reintroduced!

That way at least those pupils who are sent to Grammar Schools will learn something, rather than the present 'comprehensive' system which seems to be comprehensively mediocre in my experience, and fails to teach anyone anything at all.

Living in Tony Blair's former socialist utopia you would think we would have the best state schools around, but the fact is that until recently, anyone who could either sent their children to public school or a church school outside of the area.

The only schools around here to have money spent on them were in marginal Labour constituencies.

That seems a quite incredible view, Nigel, that less able pupils should be sacrificed for the good of the elite. Surely all are entitled to the best education consistant with their abilities? I believe in raisng standards across the board, not widening the gap between able and less able through denial of opportunity to those at the lower end of the scale. I must say you seem keen to make party political points in what should ideally be a non partisan debate on the future of our children's education.

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

That seems a quite incredible view, Nigel, that less able pupils should be sacrificed for the good of the elite. Surely all are entitled to the best education consistant with their abilities? I believe in raisng standards across the board, not widening the gap between able and less able through denial of opportunity to those at the lower end of the scale. I must say you seem keen to make party political points in what should ideally be a non partisan debate on the future of our children's education.

I am not suggesting that anyone's education should be sacrificed at all; but given the present system it seems that we have to choose between sacrificing some, or all. The option of educating everyone to their best abilities just doesn't seem to have a tick box.

I apologise if my views seem politically biased, but we suffered the effects of the Blair regime first hand. Having my office turned over by armed Specials, and having my car towed away from my private driveway without my knowledge whilst I was away on business so that Tony could entertain George W to a fish and chip lunch was the last straw as far as I am concerned.

[Zuiko]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

No I'm not; but given the choice I would rather consign 50% to the scrap heap than 100%; which is what we seem to have under the present 'comprehensive' system.

I would of course prefer that all 100% of those children who wanted it received a first class education, (of course some would rather not be educated at all), but that option seems to have been thrown out of the window long ago.

Are 100% of children currently consigned to the educational scrap heap? That rather sweeping statement seems to overlook the pupils who do excel. Certainly, we should aim to help even more achieve this standard, but we should also endeavour to raise standards at every level and ensure that education and examinations are relevant to pupil's expectations of employment. It would be economic and social madness to adopt a system that prepared only 50% of the future workforce for gainful employment, condeming the other 50% to being virtually unemployable before they even leave school!

[Wally]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

^ Failing the 11+ isn't the be all to end all as some would make it out to be. I was crap at school and came out with just the clothes I went to school in. I blossomed, if that's the right word after leaving. Almost completed my cabinetmaking apprenticeship but parents kept moving around. Entered the RAF to go into the queens flight as a chippie which was stopped - trade disbanded - and went into aerospace - radar control etc. The only degree I have is a 1st in Life Studies. I have the scars, wrinkles and grey hair and broken bones all earned the hard way and, to be honest, if I had to do it all over again I would. Second time around though, I'd do it better because I learned from my mistakes and can now repeat them exactly... practice makes for perfection.

I wasn't 'fick' at school, I was bored out of my skull 80% of the time. Could do better if he tried was a catch phrase on all my school reports. I excelled at metalwork, woodwork, art, technical drawing and science. My downfall was maths which I found boring and, to be honest, I still do. My son has a degree in maths, my daughter has a degree in media and a 1st with honours in trick cycling, sorry - can't spell psychology, another of my failings - and her name on a plaque as the top student.

Unlike my father, who convinced me I WAS thick due to my failings in maths, I've always asked my children to be the best they can. If you can do something then do what you can do and do it well. Bottom line, the only thing that will ever hold you back is YOU.

BTW don't always believe that things are impossible just because someone said so. According to flight dynamics, it is impossible for the bumble bee to fly? Someone obviously forgot to tell the bumble bee and, if they did, the advice was ignored and we're all the better for it.

[Zuiko]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I am not suggesting that anyone's education should be sacrificed at all

"but given the choice I would rather consign 50% to the scrap heap than 100%"

Yes, I see where you are coming from; the lesser of the two evils. However, I believe this "either or" strategy is both lacking in ambition and unacceptable for the long term prosperity of our nation. By all means have a two-tier education system if it will help, but the lower tier must be afforded the same resources and opportunities to realize their full potrntial as the upper tier. If we must have a Secondary Modern equivalent, let it be like the school I attended rather than the one Jim experienced. Anything less should not be contemplated.

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Are 100% of children currently consigned to the educational scrap heap? That rather sweeping statement seems to overlook the pupils who do excel. Certainly, we should aim to help even more achieve this standard, but we should also endeavour to raise standards at every level and ensure that education and examinations are relevant to pupil's expectations of employment. It would be economic and social madness to adopt a system that prepared only 50% of the future workforce for gainful employment, condeming the other 50% to being virtually unemployable before they even leave school!

Well, it is a mad system, and what you have described is exactly the system that we seem to have created.

The target is for 50% to go to university. Many of those who gain degrees still struggle to find work, and more will struggle as those nearing retirement age find they cannot afford to retire.

Of the remaining 50% I would hope that some will be lucky enough to find a job, but many others will fail to find work because they don't have the magic letters after their names; even if the job they are applying for doesn't justify more than a handful of GCSE's.

However, there is a big difference between finding a job, and finding a job that you enjoy. That was what a university education was supposed to be all about, but has so far failed to deliver.

I would happily concede that many youngsters thrive at secondary moderns, comprehensives, call them what you will. But far too many leave school unable to read, write, reason, or add up properly. Believe me, I have taught some of them at university!

And sadly, those at the bottom of the pile are probably far more likely to need to services of those at the top of the pile (such as lawyers and surgeons) than the general population. So where will those at the top of the pile come from?

Well, right now, a disproportionate number of medical staff are coming form abroad because our education system doesn't provide sufficient number of candidates to study at medical college.

[Zuiko]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

BTW don't always believe that things are impossible just because someone said so. According to flight dynamics, it is impossible for the bumble bee to fly? Someone obviously forgot to tell the bumble bee and, if they did, the advice was ignored and we're all the better for it.

Hehe, I often use that analogy when discussing why my short, portly and middle-aged friend can run marathons in less than 4 hours and complete 100 mile challenge walks in less than 48 hours. Logic tells all who know him that this should not be possible, but he does it; probably because like the bumble bee nobody told him he couldn't!

[Zuiko]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Well, it is a mad system, and what you have described is exactly the system that we seem to have created.

The target is for 50% to go to university. Many of those who gain degrees still struggle to find work, and more will struggle as those nearing retirement age find they cannot afford to retire.

Of the remaining 50% I would hope that some will be lucky enough to find a job, but many others will fail to find work because they don't have the magic letters after their names; even if the job they are applying for doesn't justify more than a handful of GCSE's.

However, there is a big difference between finding a job, and finding a job that you enjoy. That was what a university education was supposed to be all about, but has so far failed to deliver.

I would happily concede that many youngsters thrive at secondary moderns, comprehensives, call them what you will. But far too many leave school unable to read, write, reason, or add up properly. Believe me, I have taught some of them at university!

And sadly, those at the bottom of the pile are probably far more likely to need to services of those at the top of the pile (such as lawyers and surgeons) than the general population. So where will those at the top of the pile come from?

Well, right now, a disproportionate number of medical staff are coming form abroad because our education system doesn't provide sufficient number of candidates to study at medical college.

All of this is true. It seems to me that what is needed is an earlier focus on a youngster's likely career path, with education then tailored to support this. For some, that would be a target of leaving school with the basic skills of reading, writing, arithmetic (as opposed to mathematics) and verbal communication. For others that might mean gearing up for first class honours degrees in science, medicine or engineering, with all potentials between these two extremes supported to the same standard.

That's not to say youngsters should be pigeon-holed into a career pathway from which there is no escape. There should be an equally flexible, easily accessible, high standard further education tier for late developers who wish to improve upon what they have initially been equiped for at school.

We will never have the best economy, society or culture until we find how to help every individual achieve their own personal best.

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Apprenticeships ?


What happened to these ? They were supposed to be making a comeback - the only way we can get enough Plumbers ; Sparks and Chippies without enjoying a flood of our EEC migrants with these skills

[Jim Ford]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Apprenticeships ?


What happened to these ? They were supposed to be making a comeback - the only way we can get enough Plumbers ; Sparks and Chippies without enjoying a flood of our EEC migrants with these skills

I don't think these are 5* year indentured apprenticeships, with day release to a college, such as I served. I think they're more like 9 months on the job training, from what I've heard!

Jim

* It was 7 years for a thatcher in the 60s!

[Zuiko]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Apprenticeships ?


What happened to these ? They were supposed to be making a comeback - the only way we can get enough Plumbers ; Sparks and Chippies without enjoying a flood of our EEC migrants with these skills

[Ulfric M Douglas]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Incidentally, both my daughters went to a comprehensive school, and one got the highest 1st of her year in her law degree, and the other is a Head of English at a school - so I guess the comprehensive system served them well!

You don't get a law degree from a comprehensive school, you get it from a university.
I went to a comp, it was crap, a lot wasn't taught that should've been taught.
I went to sixth form then a proper university, got a degree, job done.
There is no way on earth the comp school can take any credit for that! Useless fuckers.

[Zuiko]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

You don't get a law degree from a comprehensive school, you get it from a university.
I went to a comp, it was crap, a lot wasn't taught that should've been taught.
I went to sixth form then a proper university, got a degree, job done.
There is no way on earth the comp school can take any credit for that! Useless fuckers.

But as we've aleady seen through Jim's and my vastly different experiences of Secondary Modern schooling, it's the way an individual school is run that counts, not which type of school it is. Maybe Jim's daughter's particular school did give her the quality of education needed to enable her to go on and get that degree!

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

All of this is true. It seems to me that what is needed is an earlier focus on a youngster's likely career path, with education then tailored to support this. For some, that would be a target of leaving school with the basic skills of reading, writing, arithmetic (as opposed to mathematics) and verbal communication. For others that might mean gearing up for first class honours degrees in science, medicine or engineering, with all potentials between these two extremes supported to the same standard.

That's not to say youngsters should be pigeon-holed into a career pathway from which there is no escape. There should be an equally flexible, easily accessible, high standard further education tier for late developers who wish to improve upon what they have initially been equiped for at school.

We will never have the best economy, society or culture until we find how to help every individual achieve their own personal best.

Sorry folks, I have been busy with tea.

Now, to get back to business; the mistake, I believe, is to put Grammar schools above Technical schools or vice versa. Both have their merits, and both have their place in the education system. Plumbers and electricians are more important than lawyers in my book. Without builders we would have nowhere to live, and without good gas fitters the medical profession and undertakers would be overwhelmed with work!

If there had been a mechanical aptitude test to get into a Technical school I suspect there would have been a lot less carping about the inequalities of the Grammar school system. The fact that children had to pass the 11+ to get into Grammar school was probably their undoing.

However, we also need to remember that 50 years ago it didn't matter too much if a lot of children left school illiterate and innumerate, as there was a ready supply of labouring jobs on the land, in mines, mills and other industries where literacy and numeracy were not required.

Roll on 50 years and most of those jobs have gone. The need for a good education system for ALL is therefore far more important now than ever before.

Just one final point; we often look to other countries and envy their education systems and their schools, and wonder why ours aren't as good. The reason is one I have touched on above; that for centuries we have had a ready supply of labouring jobs on the land and in mills, so there was never any real need for the majority to be well educated.

Contrast that with a country like Ireland which has comparatively few natural resources, and whose land is less ideal for farming than our own. Ireland produces a disproportionately high number of scientists, medics and academics simply because education was the only way out of poverty for most.