HELP! Youngsters Employment ?

[Chevvyf1]

[Wally]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I've recently read an article where one person looked at this problem. After much thought and research, the conclusion was that for many - those without a sugar daddy - it was better to get a job rather than get into huge debt. By the time spent in work as opposed to study at uni, you would have had chances to gain 'real' work experiences, move up the ladder and be earning from day one rather than going deeper into debt to an extent that it might never be paid off. In addition, with the glut of so-called degrees floating around, dog-eat-dog doesn't really make it easier to gain employment with a degree. Conclusion: better to earn than get into debt.

An other point that came up was that, students are perceived by universities as a commodity = abused by the system. The point raised was that they should be in the same position as anyone else who buys a product, ie., a consumer. If it is not fit for purpose you can get your money back even if it means going to court. At £9,000 pa. they have a valid point

The same article was commented upon by many other students where their opinion on modern uni teaching methods, were a shambles. The complaints, made from students from different universities from around the country made the same points, misinformation / wrong course-work, a lack of 1 to 1 tuition even though it was part of the course, late markings and, course-work being returned at the last minute pointing out errors that were too late to rectify prior to exam sittings.


Personal:

Rant mode on... Having had my son and my daughter go through all of this, and more, some years back where 'the parents and students complaints' fell on deaf ears / ignored, it would seem nothing has changed for the better, except huge increases in fees to keep some of the failures in academia in the manner to which they have become accustomed. This last part is further endorsed where recently a Vice Chancellor or should that read Vice Chancer took a £42,000 pay rise.

Rant mode off.

[Andel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

My son is on a "zero hours contract" which means he only gets paid when the employer needs him, as a consequence he claims "working tax credit" from the government. If he doesn't work enough hours he may not pay national insurance or income tax.
I am not an economist but it seems to me that it is a lose lose situation for the government. not collecting but paying out.
The economics of the madhouse!

[snaarman]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I left home aged 16 with a handful of those old fashioned O levels. I worked for three years and lived in a hostel earning and eating very little and no social life. Eventually I took a three year degree course in Electronics. The course was hard, the subject was difficult, we had early morning lectures a lot of the time. By the end of three years we were reduced from 70 to 55 students as some of us failed the part one exams.

They awarded just 2 first class degrees that year. The next year they awarded none at all Say that to a lecturer these days and they are amazed.. So: By the time I had put myself though all that I was amongst the lucky 5% of the population with a degree, and it did get me a better job as a result.

I was very lucky to get a job of sorts straight out of school, and I was lucky to get a full student grant. But boy have I paid back that grant in tax over my long working life

It's so different these days. You can't get a job straight out of school because the whole world and his dog has a degree.

What hasn't changed - no-one wants do do Physics, Maths and Engineering degrees because they are still hard...

Pete

(not sure if this was a rant)

[Jim Ford]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

When I worked in a secondary school I used to ask the A level Physics students what degree they would be doing. If they answered 'engineering', I then asked where they intended to work when they'd finished. Without exception they replied 'abroad'.

Jim

[OM USer]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

What hasn't changed - no-one wants do do Physics, Maths and Engineering degrees because they are still hard.

I did! But you you're right. These subjects have twice the lecture hours of most other courses.

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I left home aged 16 with a handful of those old fashioned O levels. I worked for three years and lived in a hostel earning and eating very little and no social life. Eventually I took a three year degree course in Electronics. The course was hard, the subject was difficult, we had early morning lectures a lot of the time. By the end of three years we were reduced from 70 to 55 students as some of us failed the part one exams.

They awarded just 2 first class degrees that year. The next year they awarded none at all Say that to a lecturer these days and they are amazed.. So: By the time I had put myself though all that I was amongst the lucky 5% of the population with a degree, and it did get me a better job as a result.

I was very lucky to get a job of sorts straight out of school, and I was lucky to get a full student grant. But boy have I paid back that grant in tax over my long working life

It's so different these days. You can't get a job straight out of school because the whole world and his dog has a degree.

What hasn't changed - no-one wants do do Physics, Maths and Engineering degrees because they are still hard...

Pete

(not sure if this was a rant)

This is all very true.

When I took 'O' and 'A' Levels, (early 1970's), only the very brightest would get A's in any subject, and it was unheard of for students to get twelve A* passes as seems to be the norm now.

The questions is, are the children of today better educated? Can they do mental arithmetic? Can they divide by 16 or multiply by 12 in their heads as we had to? Can they make a dovetail joint in timber, sew, cook, or even do a bit of welding in Metalwork? Or can they spell, speak clearly and compose cogent sentences?

More importantly, do they have any common sense?

Do I really need to answer any of these questions?

[cinders]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

I worked hard to get a science degree in the 1980s. It eventually got me a job in a governement funded institution. However it took 2 years of unemployment before that. Since then I've had a reasonably secure job (until now!) and good pension prospects. However there is no progression through the grades for most scientists as the government has cut our budget more each and every year and we are now having to reapply for our own jobs in a musical chairs scenario - but only the science based jobs! Most of the departments such as finance, media, HR, publications, etc etc will have no cuts. Science degrees are no longer going to be much use if the tradition public funded research institutions can't afford to run. The country is potentially facing a future with no pure science research as most has been traditiionally carried out in government sponsored universities, museums and laboratories. Research in its pure sense can't be made to fund itself as we are not manufacturing or selling anything physical.

Meanwhile, universities are facing more and more students who are pushed into degree courses by their schools or parents. Exams of all levels have been downgraded so that whereas only the very elite got a 1st and you still had to be pretty good and in the top 20% or so to get a 2:1, now all students expect at least a 2:1 and lecturers are bullied into awarding higher levels than were historically given. Thus the old top 5% who went to university and deserved their degree have been superseded by over 50% who get much higher degrees for their grading than we used to. Universities are so strapped for cash that they will do anything to keep their percentages up and student happiness too. It's almost impossible not to gain your degree as they'll let you back in for numerous re-sits. This all comes from my partner who is a senior science lecturer in a 'pure' science subject. He has students who are totally indifferent to studying because they have been hand fed all through school with the attitude that everyone should be able to suceed. So they expect the university system to cater to their every whim and excuse and still give them a good degree. Degree courses in science are now turning out graduates with little expertise in writing English, or thinking for themselves, or planning their work schedule. It's their right to get a degree

Sorry about the rant but the government has a lot to answer for to the scientists of the UK.

[Zuiko]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

This is all very true.

When I took 'O' and 'A' Levels, (early 1970's), only the very brightest would get A's in any subject, and it was unheard of for students to get twelve A* passes as seems to be the norm now.

The questions is, are the children of today better educated? Can they do mental arithmetic? Can they divide by 16 or multiply by 12 in their heads as we had to? Can they make a dovetail joint in timber, sew, cook, or even do a bit of welding in Metalwork? Or can they spell, speak clearly and compose cogent sentences?

More importantly, do they have any common sense?

Do I really need to answer any of these questions?

The question is, do they really need any of those skills or do they just need the ability to sell? Sell and talk a good fight, making all the right noises and using trending buzz words at meetings.

Our education system certainly needs an overhaul. But why tinker and experiment with it when we could be looking at the systems they use in more successful countries?

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

The question is, do they really need any of those skills or do they just need the ability to sell? Sell and talk a good fight, making all the right noises and using trending buzz words at meetings.

Our education system certainly needs an overhaul. But why tinker and experiment with it when we could be looking at the systems they use in more successful countries?

With respect, we don't need to tinker with it or experiment.

Britain had the best education system in the world, bar none, until governments of both colours started meddling in the 1960's and 70's.

Grammar schools provided excellent opportunities and 'social mobility' for those who were academically inclined, whilst the 'Technical' schools catered for those with more practical abilities.

Grammar schools were scrapped in the interests of political correctness, (and no doubt to save money), selection went out of the window, and all children were sent to mediocre 'comprehensives' where education was geared to the lowest common denominator and excellence of any kind was frowned upon - with the possible exception of sport.

The better public schools are now the last bastion of hope for those who can afford it, whilst the majority do what they can to get their offspring into a church school or academy.

The irony of this story is that Grammar schools would actually have been much better suited to equipping our children for a life of [post industrial] work in the 21st century than the comprehensives that replaced them.

Of course some politicians would abolish public schools as well, and I believe it is they who have caused much of the damage to our education system.

[al_kaholik]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

John, some are required, not all. Being young (I'll use the term loosely, I'm no longer the baby in the office) I can do most of the things Nigel listed, most not learnt at school. The one thing I didn't get at school was the maths bit. Try as they did, I just couldn't do it, hence not being in engineering Nigel, the answer is some. There are a large number of yoofs I meet who are very capable in all areas, but you wouldn't think it to listen to them in a group of friends. And sense has never been common.

Having been lucky enough to go to a state Grammar finishing less than 10 years ago, I went to a university, invested time, effort and money into a degree which equipped me for life. More so the non-academic skills; social, life and developing me as a person. Fast forward a few years, I work in a good company and have a good job in a field relevant to my education. Many of those who were at school and uni with me have not been so lucky. We were all promised the whole walk into a job once you have a degree that didn't happen.

Those at the local comps went on mainly to join the forces, they haven't done as bad as some of those who were at the grammar, or indeed some who invested 3 years and the thick end of £20k.

Having had some experience of the German schooling system (please do chip in Falk) it seems to be a little more pragmatic in the way it works. Technical and academic schools specialising in certain fields which push people towards their strengths.

It would be wrong of me to rate any degree over another, all subjects require a number of skills to obtain regardless of contact time, coursework or the title of the course. I think people need to be told a realistic forecast. Do certain subjects and the chances of you getting a job at the end of it are proportionally higher than in another. Grading doesn't count too much, but you need to understand that if you underachieve you can't expect to be in the same position as the person who achieves. Its like saying to a soldier, you were crap at shooting but that doesn't matter in the field, you try your best. Certain people aren't cut out for certain jobs, fact. In the same way I don't enjoy certain things, its life. We shouldn't as a country try to push people into further education for the sake of it, it doesn't benefit some people who would be better off and probably happier doing something else.

Don't get me started on jobs being beneath people... I'd quite happily sweep the platforms and clean the toilets if my boss asked me to.

[Chevvyf1]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

... We shouldn't as a country, try to push people into further education for the sake of it, it doesn't benefit some people who would be better off and probably happier doing something else.

Don't get me started on jobs being beneath people... I'd quite happily sweep the platforms and clean the toilets if my boss asked me to.

You have struck the NAIL ON THE HEAD ! The Govt thought it would "Raise the level of education/degree holders" and to this end, pushed "unbelievable futures with a DEGREE"


and many believed this ... what is it they call the condition "losing touch with reality" ?

Women, especially fall into the "Career Trap" I can honestly say, I wish I had thought long term and not been "in the computer industry" offsetting the vast taxes I paid and the long hours IU worked and the time away from home - I would have been much happier with my own babies - at home - and doing something like HAIRDRESSING or GARDENING ... INFACT, many a book has been written on the subject of "Women, Moving on" from High Flying Careers ...

I have 3 male friends, ex IBM or Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) who are VICARS - more Social Workers really and two Heart Specialists who are now GARDENING then there is me Childminding

There is a NIGHTMARE BREWING in the Effects of all these Children in CHILDCARE and with little Parenting other than "Chequebook Parenting" that's another Thread ...

[Naughty Nigel]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

You have struck the NAIL ON THE HEAD ! The Govt thought it would "Raise the level of education/degree holders" and to this end, pushed "unbelievable futures with a DEGREE"


and many believed this ... what is it they call the condition "losing touch with reality" ?

Women, especially fall into the "Career Trap" I can honestly say, I wish I had thought long term and not been "in the computer industry" offsetting the vast taxes I paid and the long hours IU worked and the time away from home - I would have been much happier with my own babies - at home - and doing something like HAIRDRESSING or GARDENING ... INFACT, many a book has been written on the subject of "Women, Moving on" from High Flying Careers ...

I have 3 male friends, ex IBM or Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) who are VICARS - more Social Workers really and two Heart Specialists who are now GARDENING then there is me Childminding

There is a NIGHTMARE BREWING in the Effects of all these Children in CHILDCARE and with little Parenting other than "Chequebook Parenting" that's another Thread ...

This is all very true. The current Archbishop of Canterbury was an oil executive until a few years ago, no doubt earning a five or six figure salary; which just proves that there is more to life than making money.

However, we must not forget that the idea of sending 50% of school leavers to university was a Tony Blair / Noolaber policy designed to reduce the jobless figures for 18 ~ 22 year olds by 50%, and so make it look as if Labour had cracked the youth unemployment problem.

(They also employed around one million additional public servants for much the same reason, and promised them gold plated, index linked pensions, which we are now paying the price for.)

In fairness, there is a need to improve education to compete with other countries, but I'm not sure whether Media Studies, Sports Technology or Leisure Studies are really the most worthwhile degree subjects.

Meanwhile, our remaining shipbuilders have to employ Polish welders to build the Queen's new warships because there are too few 'coded' welders in this country.

Something has gone wrong.

[snaarman]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Britain had the best education system in the world, bar none, until governments of both colours started meddling in the 1960's and 70's.

Grammar schools provided excellent opportunities ......

(

Grrr. Yes, I've got all cross and hot under the collar.

I passed my 11 plus (remember that?) and earned a place in a new Grammar School (remember them?) with new equipment and motivated teachers. Hard work but excellent

But the we moved after two years and I ended up at a "Comprehensive School"

It was a DUMP. I'll say that again, a DUMP. The only part of it that was comprehensive was the bullying and the fear. Where I might have stayed on to do A levels at the Grammar school, I left the dump and ran as far as I could as soon as I could. I made good with a dose of luck despite that school.

So when I've heard politicians extolling the Comprehensive system over the years I find myself thinking - "yeah but I can see you never went to one...."

Forty five years later I still resent what that school did to me. Annoyed.

get cup of tea. calm down Pete.

[StephenL]

Re: Youngsters Employment ?

Grrr. Yes, I've got all cross and hot under the collar.

I passed my 11 plus (remember that?) and earned a place in a new Grammar School (remember them?) with new equipment and motivated teachers. Hard work but excellent

But the we moved after two years and I ended up at a "Comprehensive School"

It was a DUMP. I'll say that again, a DUMP. The only part of it that was comprehensive was the bullying and the fear. Where I might have stayed on to do A levels at the Grammar school, I left the dump and ran as far as I could as soon as I could. I made good with a dose of luck despite that school.

So when I've heard politicians extolling the Comprehensive system over the years I find myself thinking - "yeah but I can see you never went to one...."

Forty five years later I still resent what that school did to me. Annoyed.

get cup of tea. calm down Pete.

My experiences exactly, but with a "Grammar" school. Lesson choices were alphabetical - surname beginning with A, you got first choice. Mine begins with L, so I ended up doing History and Biology.

The only thing that school taught me was how to develop and print photos. I used to "borrow" the school darkroom key instead of attending bullying lessons, AKA games. I passed 3 O levels and left the same day I finished the last exam. No college for me.

Went firstly into textiles, then HGV servicing, then IT. Still with no formal qualifications. Both worked as senior managers in IT till the pressure got us both down. Sold our house (kids had left home with degrees by this time!) and moved into grace-and-favour accommodation.

Now we have no debts, no mortgage, and a bigger disposable income than ever before, despite being early-retired (me) and in a so-called menial job (wife). But totally stress free. And still not a degree or even A Level between us.

But the mindset now is that you must have at least one degree before you can even sign on! Anything less and you'll never work at anything.