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  • Jim Ford
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

    The author is going to be pretty busy keeping the site updated!

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • KeithL
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by wornish View Post
    The EU is a club you can't leave! (A bit like Hotel California).
    I and most remain voters would be more than happy to look at the EU from the outside.

    Do you even take any notice of (or even care) what's happening in its member countries?

    France
    Italy
    Sweden
    Austria
    Hungary
    .......... I could go on.

    The EU as it stands today will not survive.

    Then, to try and compare the EU to the UN is a bit desperate - please explain how and why they are similar.
    LAtter point first: I did NOT say that they are similar; but the UN is a club, too. However, the World Trade Organization is part of the UN, so it is a valid comparison and comment.

    What I did in the two long posts was to state a set of FACTS - which, in my experience, leavers, unfortunately, don't like (and nor does Boris!!) People generally in Britain have little or no idea of how the EU operates, what it actually does, or even of its structure. I spent twelve years working with the European Commission, so I have had first-hand personal experience of it; I also had over the last forty years, interaction with both the Department of Trade and Industry (aka the Dept ofTears and Ignominy :-) ) when it existed, and the Department of Transport. I would far rather work with the EC than either of those Departments here. The EU is no worse than our own administration overall; and the EC generally more pragmatic and helpful than today's UK civil service, in my experience. Of course, the EU is no more perfect than is Westminster, Holyrood, or the others here; it is peopled by human beings, with all that implies. People are fallible, some are corrupt or otherwise dishonest, but most genuinely want to serve the European community, just as it is here. Or at least, claims to be.

    Leave a comment:


  • KeithL
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by Otto View Post
    I'll just leave this here:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9223846.html

    Google bans eight different Tory election adverts as disinformation concerns mount
    When the Tories think that they have to resort to such tactics, they can only be desperate - they KNOW that they are selling the electorate a pig in a poke. Once, they used to be a party with integrity, as indeed all of our parties were (main ones, anyway). That our politics has sunk to such a level of dishonesty is appalling. Unfortunately, in our constituency, it won't matter what I vote: it is deep deep blue, and hasn't been anything else for many years. So frankly, my feeling is that there is no point in my voting at all. I have tried several times writing to my local MP, Richard Bacon. He never replies, all you get is an automated acknowledgement. Not one party has delivered any election material here; that must surely sum it up. Forty years ago, I voted Tory. Today I would rather stick pins in my eyes than do so, seeing what they have become. And I am sorry to have to feel like that. i suspect that I am far from alone.

    Leave a comment:


  • Graham_of_Rainham
    replied

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Ford
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by Otto View Post
    I'll just leave this here:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9223846.html

    Google bans eight different Tory election adverts as disinformation concerns mount
    Doesn't make any difference - the lies are out there and can't be reeled back. I looked in the right wing press for the same news item, but needn't have bothered and quickly gave up.

    I guess that Google will be labelled as part of 'the loony left' by the Tories now!

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • Otto
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    I'll just leave this here:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9223846.html

    Google bans eight different Tory election adverts as disinformation concerns mount

    Leave a comment:


  • Wally
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by wornish View Post
    The EU is a club you can't leave! (A bit like Hotel California)...

    Do you even take any notice of (or even care) what's happening in its member countries?

    France
    Italy
    Sweden
    Austria
    Hungary
    .......... I could go on.

    The EU as it stands today will not survive. .

    I believe you missed one off the list?

    Germany, as in the above list, is not without its internal political issues. So much so, that Merkel's S D group are struggling for support.

    As for the existing EU survival, I am in agreement. Days to do are getting few. It would seem the one hat fits all approach doesn't quite fit the bill and is coming home to roost.

    Leave a comment:


  • Zuiko
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Yes, but despite all the money wasted by the EU it is still generally accepted, even by the Government, that we will be far worse off after Brexit.

    Leave a comment:


  • wornish
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by KeithL View Post
    I have heard this "sovereignty" mantra so many times! That must mean that Brexiteers also want us to leave the United Nations, which is a higher authority than the EU, and plays a far bigger part in our legal framework...........


    The EU is basically a club. If any of us wish to join this forum (or any real club), we have to agree to be bound by its rules; if we won't, or we do and break the rules, we are penalized. Therefore, we give up a bit of our personal sovereignty in order to benefit from using the forum. If we leave the forum or club, we can only look on from outside it, and have no benefit of membership. The EU is no different.

    .

    The EU is a club you can't leave! (A bit like Hotel California).
    I and most remain voters would be more than happy to look at the EU from the outside.

    Do you even take any notice of (or even care) what's happening in its member countries?

    France
    Italy
    Sweden
    Austria
    Hungary
    .......... I could go on.

    The EU as it stands today will not survive.

    Then, to try and compare the EU to the UN is a bit desperate - please explain how and why they are similar.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Ford
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by KeithL View Post
    I have heard this "sovereignty" mantra so many times! That must mean that Brexiteers also want us to leave the United Nations, which is a higher authority than the EU, and plays a far bigger part in our legal framework.
    <snip>
    Don't confuse them with the facts, Keith - they want their "sovereignty back"!

    Brexit has tapped into a deep well of jingoism, intolerance and nastiness that many of us were unaware that existed in our "right little, tight little" island. I can play the 'Superior Englishman' as well as anyone, but for many it's not playacting.

    Of course there will be those that read this far and will say: 'If you don't like it you can leave!', to which I would say that I will stay and fight against those negative values mentioned above.

    Jim

    Leave a comment:


  • Beagletorque
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by KeithL View Post
    I have heard this "sovereignty" mantra so many times! That must mean that Brexiteers also want us to leave the United Nations, which is a higher authority than the EU, and plays a far bigger part in our legal framework.

    Now, the European Court of Justice was set up in 1952 - before the ECSC. It has a judge from every member state. Its task is to ensure the equal and consistent application of EU law and regulations across all member states. It is in effect a trade disputes court, and there is a similar requirement under WTO (UN) rules for any trading bloc, such as, for example, the African Continental Free Trade Area, which came into existence this year, or NAFTA.

    By and large the EU does two things in respect of "laws".
    1) it issues directives which say, 'please create a national law to do the following task'. Directives are just a few pages of A4. I participated in the development of two directives (89/336/EEC and 95/56/EC) into EU-wide regulations. The task was given to the British motor industry - these were sector specific regulations.

    2) It passes down to all member states United Nations directives, which can have a big impact on any national laws.

    Basically, the EU, like all trading blocs must do, operates under WTO rules. The latter include rules on free movement of people, environment, 'level playing field' and so on.

    In addition to the above, UKIP especially drummed up well, hatred, of the European Court of Human Rights. That is emphatically NOT part of the EU; it has 47 members, and was set up by the European Convention on Human Rights as a result of the bringing to trial the Nazis at Nuremburg. You can be a member of the EHCR without being in the EU, but you cannot be in the EU without being a member of the ECHR.

    The EU is basically a club. If any of us wish to join this forum (or any real club), we have to agree to be bound by its rules; if we won't, or we do and break the rules, we are penalized. Therefore, we give up a bit of our personal sovereignty in order to benefit from using the forum. If we leave the forum or club, we can only look on from outside it, and have no benefit of membership. The EU is no different.

    You may be interested to hear that there is also the UN(ECE) set of regulations, which are again nothing to do with the EU, and we (automotive we) have to comply with those in order to sell cars to both non EU AND EU products in Europe: UN (ECE) is the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe - and I bet there are almost no members of this forum who have ever heard of it.

    As for the moaning about the cost and bureaucracy of the EU, think on this: in Britain, we offloaded a lot of civil servants because we didn't need them when we joined the then EEC. Today we have 439,000 civil servants. Multiply that by 28, and consider what that would cost. The EU's 37,000 civil servants to cater for 28 countries is hardly extravagant! In fact, when I first came into contact with the European Commission, it employed less people than our own Scottish Office - in fact, not enough, which is why the budget audit often failed to materialize: there weren't enough employees to do the work.

    As I said a few posts ago, trade today is hugely complex when you try to create a level playing field. Outside the EU we will have to employ a helluva lot more civil servants if we want to achieve trade deals with other blocs - as well as the EU - and it will be very expensive. This is NOT the world of 1973, or even 1993, and rules and regulations about trade have burgeoned across the world. Remember GATT? That was the forerunner of the WTO. That has developed since we joined the EEC. We have no experience of it, and the fun and games will really start once we leave and try to go it alone.
    This should be re-quoted often in the hope that some of the idiots actually read it.

    Leave a comment:


  • KeithL
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by Jim Ford View Post
    Coventry is often mentioned in the context of severe bombing raids - 'Coventry got hit bad!', but it was a mere scratch compared to Hamburg. I've got a book somewhere "The Night Hamburg Died", but I can't put my hand to it at the moment but I remember that the figures relating to the destruction were off the scale. I do remember that the city burned for 10 days. Wikipedia quotes a U.S. Major comparing the destruction to the Nagasaki atom bomb:

    "In January 1946, Major Cortez F. Enloe, a surgeon in the USAAF who worked on the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS), said that the fire effects of the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki "were not nearly as bad as the effects of the R.A.F. raids on Hamburg on July 27th 1943". He estimated that more than 40,000 people died in Hamburg."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombin...n_World_War_II



    If every male was shown the works of Otto Dix after WW1, there would never have been a WW2:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=otto...-84WBW3NsNNwM:

    Excellent post, Keith!

    Jim
    I only mentioned it Jim because it is my birthplace. 160 acres of the centre were flattened, plus many more streets with partial damage. Coventry is twinned with Dresden, and helped raise money and also had the huge ball made for the top of the dome of the Frauenkirche. My school was twinned with a Berlin high school.

    My rather older brother was stationed just outside Hamburg at RAF Utersen in 1947/8. I well remember his descriptions of the utter destruction. My wife and I went to Dresden in 2000. There were still palaces then that were burned out shells. I mentioned damaged people from the war. There was a chap used to wander round Coventry who had lost his mind as a result of the bombing. In the 60s he used to try to direct traffic even at traffic lights, to the consternation of the police. When he wasn't doing that, he was marching an imaginary squad about the city. Some of my teachers were damaged too; one had 'shell shock'; he had been a Commando. One of my mother's neighbours was severely wounded in WW1; he was picked up by Germans in no-man's land, and had a large silver plate put in to repair his skull. They saved his life. And after all that, he wouldn't hear a word against them - which meant the neighbours shunned him. Another neighbor had been some form of French resistance member. She reputedly had the Croix de Guerre. I suspect she was in SOE or some such, because after she died - young, about 1959 - she had seemingly been using a false identity. There is no record of her funeral or even her existence in Coventry archives.

    Those who start wars don't have to fight in them. It is those who believe and follow them who pay the real price.

    Leave a comment:


  • KeithL
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    I have heard this "sovereignty" mantra so many times! That must mean that Brexiteers also want us to leave the United Nations, which is a higher authority than the EU, and plays a far bigger part in our legal framework.

    Now, the European Court of Justice was set up in 1952 - before the ECSC. It has a judge from every member state. Its task is to ensure the equal and consistent application of EU law and regulations across all member states. It is in effect a trade disputes court, and there is a similar requirement under WTO (UN) rules for any trading bloc, such as, for example, the African Continental Free Trade Area, which came into existence this year, or NAFTA.

    By and large the EU does two things in respect of "laws".
    1) it issues directives which say, 'please create a national law to do the following task'. Directives are just a few pages of A4. I participated in the development of two directives (89/336/EEC and 95/56/EC) into EU-wide regulations. The task was given to the British motor industry - these were sector specific regulations.

    2) It passes down to all member states United Nations directives, which can have a big impact on any national laws.

    Basically, the EU, like all trading blocs must do, operates under WTO rules. The latter include rules on free movement of people, environment, 'level playing field' and so on.

    In addition to the above, UKIP especially drummed up well, hatred, of the European Court of Human Rights. That is emphatically NOT part of the EU; it has 47 members, and was set up by the European Convention on Human Rights as a result of the bringing to trial the Nazis at Nuremburg. You can be a member of the EHCR without being in the EU, but you cannot be in the EU without being a member of the ECHR.

    The EU is basically a club. If any of us wish to join this forum (or any real club), we have to agree to be bound by its rules; if we won't, or we do and break the rules, we are penalized. Therefore, we give up a bit of our personal sovereignty in order to benefit from using the forum. If we leave the forum or club, we can only look on from outside it, and have no benefit of membership. The EU is no different.

    You may be interested to hear that there is also the UN(ECE) set of regulations, which are again nothing to do with the EU, and we (automotive we) have to comply with those in order to sell cars to both non EU AND EU products in Europe: UN (ECE) is the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe - and I bet there are almost no members of this forum who have ever heard of it.

    As for the moaning about the cost and bureaucracy of the EU, think on this: in Britain, we offloaded a lot of civil servants because we didn't need them when we joined the then EEC. Today we have 439,000 civil servants. Multiply that by 28, and consider what that would cost. The EU's 37,000 civil servants to cater for 28 countries is hardly extravagant! In fact, when I first came into contact with the European Commission, it employed less people than our own Scottish Office - in fact, not enough, which is why the budget audit often failed to materialize: there weren't enough employees to do the work.

    As I said a few posts ago, trade today is hugely complex when you try to create a level playing field. Outside the EU we will have to employ a helluva lot more civil servants if we want to achieve trade deals with other blocs - as well as the EU - and it will be very expensive. This is NOT the world of 1973, or even 1993, and rules and regulations about trade have burgeoned across the world. Remember GATT? That was the forerunner of the WTO. That has developed since we joined the EEC. We have no experience of it, and the fun and games will really start once we leave and try to go it alone.

    Leave a comment:


  • Beagletorque
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by Harold Gough View Post
    I was unaware of such a correlation. I am in my 70s and couldn't care less about sport, and am not obsessed by WW2, but I detest the lack of sovereignty of our parliament and our courts. Nothing to do with giving anyone a kicking.

    Harold
    It seems many of the older folks have believed the BS put about by the brexit lobby. They will be long dead while we still live with the consequences of their gullibility....

    Leave a comment:


  • Jim Ford
    replied
    Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by KeithL View Post
    It's easy to take that view when you haven't been exposed to the consequences of war. (I was born in Coventry and well remember it in ruins after the war.
    Coventry is often mentioned in the context of severe bombing raids - 'Coventry got hit bad!', but it was a mere scratch compared to Hamburg. I've got a book somewhere "The Night Hamburg Died", but I can't put my hand to it at the moment but I remember that the figures relating to the destruction were off the scale. I do remember that the city burned for 10 days. Wikipedia quotes a U.S. Major comparing the destruction to the Nagasaki atom bomb:

    "In January 1946, Major Cortez F. Enloe, a surgeon in the USAAF who worked on the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS), said that the fire effects of the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki "were not nearly as bad as the effects of the R.A.F. raids on Hamburg on July 27th 1943". He estimated that more than 40,000 people died in Hamburg."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombin...n_World_War_II

    I also remember seeing people with WW1 and WW2 injuries that blighted the whole of their remaining lives) I showed one guy at work who made such comment some photos of WW1 soldiers injured by shrapnel and asked if he would REALLY want to do that to another human being. He went white, and I thought he was going to faint. He didn't make such comment again - at least, not to me!
    If every male was shown the works of Otto Dix after WW1, there would never have been a WW2:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=otto...-84WBW3NsNNwM:

    Excellent post, Keith!

    Jim

    Leave a comment:

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