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  • Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by KeithL View Post
    I have heard this "sovereignty" mantra so many times! That must mean that Brexiteers also want us to leave the United Nations, which is a higher authority than the EU, and plays a far bigger part in our legal framework.

    Now, the European Court of Justice was set up in 1952 - before the ECSC. It has a judge from every member state. Its task is to ensure the equal and consistent application of EU law and regulations across all member states. It is in effect a trade disputes court, and there is a similar requirement under WTO (UN) rules for any trading bloc, such as, for example, the African Continental Free Trade Area, which came into existence this year, or NAFTA.

    By and large the EU does two things in respect of "laws".
    1) it issues directives which say, 'please create a national law to do the following task'. Directives are just a few pages of A4. I participated in the development of two directives (89/336/EEC and 95/56/EC) into EU-wide regulations. The task was given to the British motor industry - these were sector specific regulations.

    2) It passes down to all member states United Nations directives, which can have a big impact on any national laws.

    Basically, the EU, like all trading blocs must do, operates under WTO rules. The latter include rules on free movement of people, environment, 'level playing field' and so on.

    In addition to the above, UKIP especially drummed up well, hatred, of the European Court of Human Rights. That is emphatically NOT part of the EU; it has 47 members, and was set up by the European Convention on Human Rights as a result of the bringing to trial the Nazis at Nuremburg. You can be a member of the EHCR without being in the EU, but you cannot be in the EU without being a member of the ECHR.

    The EU is basically a club. If any of us wish to join this forum (or any real club), we have to agree to be bound by its rules; if we won't, or we do and break the rules, we are penalized. Therefore, we give up a bit of our personal sovereignty in order to benefit from using the forum. If we leave the forum or club, we can only look on from outside it, and have no benefit of membership. The EU is no different.

    You may be interested to hear that there is also the UN(ECE) set of regulations, which are again nothing to do with the EU, and we (automotive we) have to comply with those in order to sell cars to both non EU AND EU products in Europe: UN (ECE) is the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe - and I bet there are almost no members of this forum who have ever heard of it.

    As for the moaning about the cost and bureaucracy of the EU, think on this: in Britain, we offloaded a lot of civil servants because we didn't need them when we joined the then EEC. Today we have 439,000 civil servants. Multiply that by 28, and consider what that would cost. The EU's 37,000 civil servants to cater for 28 countries is hardly extravagant! In fact, when I first came into contact with the European Commission, it employed less people than our own Scottish Office - in fact, not enough, which is why the budget audit often failed to materialize: there weren't enough employees to do the work.

    As I said a few posts ago, trade today is hugely complex when you try to create a level playing field. Outside the EU we will have to employ a helluva lot more civil servants if we want to achieve trade deals with other blocs - as well as the EU - and it will be very expensive. This is NOT the world of 1973, or even 1993, and rules and regulations about trade have burgeoned across the world. Remember GATT? That was the forerunner of the WTO. That has developed since we joined the EEC. We have no experience of it, and the fun and games will really start once we leave and try to go it alone.
    This should be re-quoted often in the hope that some of the idiots actually read it.
    Stuff from Cuba
    More stuff from Cuba
    It all started here

    Comment


    • Re: Boris Gate

      Originally posted by KeithL View Post
      I have heard this "sovereignty" mantra so many times! That must mean that Brexiteers also want us to leave the United Nations, which is a higher authority than the EU, and plays a far bigger part in our legal framework.
      <snip>
      Don't confuse them with the facts, Keith - they want their "sovereignty back"!

      Brexit has tapped into a deep well of jingoism, intolerance and nastiness that many of us were unaware that existed in our "right little, tight little" island. I can play the 'Superior Englishman' as well as anyone, but for many it's not playacting.

      Of course there will be those that read this far and will say: 'If you don't like it you can leave!', to which I would say that I will stay and fight against those negative values mentioned above.

      Jim

      Comment


      • Re: Boris Gate

        Originally posted by KeithL View Post
        I have heard this "sovereignty" mantra so many times! That must mean that Brexiteers also want us to leave the United Nations, which is a higher authority than the EU, and plays a far bigger part in our legal framework...........


        The EU is basically a club. If any of us wish to join this forum (or any real club), we have to agree to be bound by its rules; if we won't, or we do and break the rules, we are penalized. Therefore, we give up a bit of our personal sovereignty in order to benefit from using the forum. If we leave the forum or club, we can only look on from outside it, and have no benefit of membership. The EU is no different.

        .

        The EU is a club you can't leave! (A bit like Hotel California).
        I and most remain voters would be more than happy to look at the EU from the outside.

        Do you even take any notice of (or even care) what's happening in its member countries?

        France
        Italy
        Sweden
        Austria
        Hungary
        .......... I could go on.

        The EU as it stands today will not survive.

        Then, to try and compare the EU to the UN is a bit desperate - please explain how and why they are similar.
        Dave

        My Flickr

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        • Re: Boris Gate

          Yes, but despite all the money wasted by the EU it is still generally accepted, even by the Government, that we will be far worse off after Brexit.
          John

          "A hundredth of a second here, a hundredth of a second there � even if you put them end to end, they still only add up to one, two, perhaps three seconds, snatched from eternity." ~ Robert Doisneau

          Comment


          • Re: Boris Gate

            Originally posted by wornish View Post
            The EU is a club you can't leave! (A bit like Hotel California)...

            Do you even take any notice of (or even care) what's happening in its member countries?

            France
            Italy
            Sweden
            Austria
            Hungary
            .......... I could go on.

            The EU as it stands today will not survive. .

            I believe you missed one off the list?

            Germany, as in the above list, is not without its internal political issues. So much so, that Merkel's S D group are struggling for support.

            As for the existing EU survival, I am in agreement. Days to do are getting few. It would seem the one hat fits all approach doesn't quite fit the bill and is coming home to roost.
            It's not what inspires us that is important, it's where the journey takes us.

            Wally and his Collie with our Oly bits & bobs

            Comment


            • Re: Boris Gate

              I'll just leave this here:

              https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9223846.html

              Google bans eight different Tory election adverts as disinformation concerns mount
              Regards
              Richard

              Comment


              • Re: Boris Gate

                Originally posted by Otto View Post
                I'll just leave this here:

                https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9223846.html

                Google bans eight different Tory election adverts as disinformation concerns mount
                Doesn't make any difference - the lies are out there and can't be reeled back. I looked in the right wing press for the same news item, but needn't have bothered and quickly gave up.

                I guess that Google will be labelled as part of 'the loony left' by the Tories now!

                Jim

                Comment


                • Graham

                  We often repeat the mistakes we most enjoy...

                  Comment


                  • Re: Boris Gate

                    Originally posted by Otto View Post
                    I'll just leave this here:

                    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9223846.html

                    Google bans eight different Tory election adverts as disinformation concerns mount
                    When the Tories think that they have to resort to such tactics, they can only be desperate - they KNOW that they are selling the electorate a pig in a poke. Once, they used to be a party with integrity, as indeed all of our parties were (main ones, anyway). That our politics has sunk to such a level of dishonesty is appalling. Unfortunately, in our constituency, it won't matter what I vote: it is deep deep blue, and hasn't been anything else for many years. So frankly, my feeling is that there is no point in my voting at all. I have tried several times writing to my local MP, Richard Bacon. He never replies, all you get is an automated acknowledgement. Not one party has delivered any election material here; that must surely sum it up. Forty years ago, I voted Tory. Today I would rather stick pins in my eyes than do so, seeing what they have become. And I am sorry to have to feel like that. i suspect that I am far from alone.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Boris Gate

                      Originally posted by wornish View Post
                      The EU is a club you can't leave! (A bit like Hotel California).
                      I and most remain voters would be more than happy to look at the EU from the outside.

                      Do you even take any notice of (or even care) what's happening in its member countries?

                      France
                      Italy
                      Sweden
                      Austria
                      Hungary
                      .......... I could go on.

                      The EU as it stands today will not survive.

                      Then, to try and compare the EU to the UN is a bit desperate - please explain how and why they are similar.
                      LAtter point first: I did NOT say that they are similar; but the UN is a club, too. However, the World Trade Organization is part of the UN, so it is a valid comparison and comment.

                      What I did in the two long posts was to state a set of FACTS - which, in my experience, leavers, unfortunately, don't like (and nor does Boris!!) People generally in Britain have little or no idea of how the EU operates, what it actually does, or even of its structure. I spent twelve years working with the European Commission, so I have had first-hand personal experience of it; I also had over the last forty years, interaction with both the Department of Trade and Industry (aka the Dept ofTears and Ignominy :-) ) when it existed, and the Department of Transport. I would far rather work with the EC than either of those Departments here. The EU is no worse than our own administration overall; and the EC generally more pragmatic and helpful than today's UK civil service, in my experience. Of course, the EU is no more perfect than is Westminster, Holyrood, or the others here; it is peopled by human beings, with all that implies. People are fallible, some are corrupt or otherwise dishonest, but most genuinely want to serve the European community, just as it is here. Or at least, claims to be.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Boris Gate

                        https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

                        The author is going to be pretty busy keeping the site updated!

                        Jim

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