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  • Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
    Would it not be possible to wire them all up to lie detectors?
    Yeahbut, Johnson's the master. All the others are rank amateurs. Even the most experienced BBC interviewers can hardly keep a straight face when he kicks off!

    God knows why the people of Uxbridge and South Ruislip are still in thrall to the charlatan!

    Jim

    Comment


    • Re: Boris Gate

      Hopefully enough of them won't be on 12/12 .
      Regards
      Richard

      Comment


      • Re: Boris Gate

        My god, I decided to have a look at the forum after a long time off it. Deja vu??? It sounds just the same as a couple of years back, same comment, same rhetoric.

        Brexit is utterly destructive as a subject. I have contributed articles to a political magazine for the last six years, and of course they are dominated by Brexit. I see the same trends, but worsening over time: research anything - like fisheries, and 'taking back our fish' - and the Leave contingent come back with insults and mantras, no logic, no thought. I wanted to remain, and would still prefer to, for purely economic reasons (Chinese hegemony over manufacturing for instance) but we are clearly past the point of no return, and in more ways than one. Recently I was discussing trade deals with someone whom I know; a third party came up, heard us, and shouted "trade deals are easy!" I replied that I had done a lot of research (which I had to do to write articles) and I was surprised at just what is involved. India and the USA were negotiating for 8 years to try to reach agreement. The talks collapsed mid 2018 when the Indians insisted on free movement for their people, and the Americans wouldn't agree. His response? "Of course they are easy!" and stomped off. With that level of debate, no wonder we are in the current mess.

        There is NOTHING easy about Brexit. Apart from NI, we are deeply involved not just in EU issues, but also UN edicts, which have to come via the EU. A local UKIP MEP claimed that asbestos had to be removed because of EU regulations; it was nothing to do with the EU, it was a UN edict. Once out of the EU, we will have all the UN edicts to manage ourselves. Now, an ex colleague told me that she had been in Strasburg, and a local told her about the 66000 civil servants employed being there. She was furious, and said it was all down to the EU. Not true! The EU employs about 37,000 people, some temporary staff. Most civil servants in Strasburg are employed by the Council of Europe and the ECJ - neither of which are EU. Part of my response was, do you know how many civil servants are employed in the UK? She didn't. We employ some 493,000. And that number will increase significantly after we leave. She just remarked "Huh! They can't do much work then!"

        We live in a very different world to that of 1973. There is now a huge trade bloc in Africa, of 51 nations. Just think what it will be like negotiating with them! It took 17 years for them to agree their group - under WTO rules. The world is a complex place. Everyone has an agenda of their own. I think we face a frightening future outside a major trading bloc. But it's pointless making such a comment; those who want to leave won't believe it, and those wishing to remain just groan and roll their eyes. But we have created the mess, and we have somehow to pick up the pieces. I pity our young people.

        Comment


        • Re: Boris Gate

          Excellent post Keith. So many people fail to understand the bigger picture, and see only the superficial, not the detailed. I despair of what this country has become, and I think it can only get worse they way we are heading. I too pity our young people but hope that they will have the strength and vision to clear up the mess.
          Regards
          Richard

          Comment


          • Re: Boris Gate

            Originally posted by KeithL View Post
            But we have created the mess, and we have somehow to pick up the pieces. I pity our young people.
            I feel that it's more like we've got to take our punishment!

            Jim

            Comment


            • Re: Boris Gate

              Originally posted by Jim Ford View Post
              I feel that it's more like we've got to take our punishment!

              Jim
              Not again ! Lost count of how many times that's been posted. The skill in debating is coming up with new thoughts, opinions and suggestions not repeating old cliches

              Jax

              Comment


              • Re: Boris Gate

                Marina Hyde of The Guardian is on waspish form today. I particularly liked:

                "Boris Johnson’s big contribution to reducing plastic consumption is not wearing condoms."

                and:

                "So let me say that this election marks a change of behaviour for the prime minister, who has finally started withdrawing. Unfortunately, he’s pulling out of climate debates and BBC interviews, as opposed to single mothers."

                Also, with reference to the Torys' threat to withdraw the broadcasting licence to Ch4:

                "Thursday night saw Boris Johnson refuse to turn up to Channel 4’s climate debate, along with Barboured harbinger Nigel Farage. The broadcaster replaced the pair with ice sculptures that melted while the rest of the UK’s party leaders discussed an impending planetary catastrophe which, according to the BBC’s news headline rankings, couldn’t be more important unless it was a letter of complaint from No 10 to Ofcom."

                https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ter-reputation

                I wouldn't want to come under the spotlight of Marina Hyde!

                Jim

                Comment


                • Re: Boris Gate

                  I have seen both comment in some press and also observed the demography of leavers and remainers in my area, and came to the conclusion that locally the majority of people in my age group whom I know seem to be remainers, whilst the majority of leavers whom I know seem to be in the 50-64 age group. I think that accords reasonably with the general published view.

                  The other thing that I notice is that this age group, 50-64, are those who are clearly obsessed with WW2 and football - tribalism - whereas my age group isn't. The difference? People like myself saw the consequences of WW2 first hand, and tend to look at the EU in the light of "we wouldn't want to go through that again, and if the EU helped in that regard, it's a good thing." By way of contrast, I have come across quite a few 50-64s who comment things like, "I'd like to go and give the Germans a good kicking again". It's easy to take that view when you haven't been exposed to the consequences of war. (I was born in Coventry and well remember it in ruins after the war. I also remember seeing people with WW1 and WW2 injuries that blighted the whole of their remaining lives) I showed one guy at work who made such comment some photos of WW1 soldiers injured by shrapnel and asked if he would REALLY want to do that to another human being. He went white, and I thought he was going to faint. He didn't make such comment again - at least, not to me!

                  I also remember a Brussels bar owner who asked the group I was with why the Brits keep on hating the Germans so. She said, "We were invaded and occupied for four years - you weren't. We have forgiven and moved on. Why can't you?" That's a valid point, methinks.

                  I have lately seen similar comment to all of the above in the press. For all that the British love to go on about how we had an Empire on which the sun never set, they yet have an oddly insular view of the world. Maybe if they stopped constantly looking back at the two world wars through rose tinted specs, they might see the EU in a different light. I suspect that, having had the Empire, the British like to feel superior to other nations. The sad reality is, they aren't. The British really do need to stop looking back, and consider their future in the world as it is, not as it was decades ago.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Boris Gate

                    Originally posted by KeithL View Post

                    The other thing that I notice is that this age group, 50-64, are those who are clearly obsessed with WW2 and football
                    I was unaware of such a correlation. I am in my 70s and couldn't care less about sport, and am not obsessed by WW2, but I detest the lack of sovereignty of our parliament and our courts. Nothing to do with giving anyone a kicking.

                    Harold
                    The body is willing but the mind is weak.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Boris Gate

                      Originally posted by Harold Gough View Post
                      I was unaware of such a correlation. I am in my 70s and couldn't care less about sport, and am not obsessed by WW2, but I detest the lack of sovereignty of our parliament and our courts. Nothing to do with giving anyone a kicking.

                      Harold
                      Me too Harold

                      Jax

                      Comment


                      • Re: Boris Gate

                        Originally posted by Harold Gough View Post
                        I was unaware of such a correlation. I am in my 70s and couldn't care less about sport, and am not obsessed by WW2, but I detest the lack of sovereignty of our parliament and our courts. Nothing to do with giving anyone a kicking.

                        Harold

                        Comment


                        • Re: Boris Gate

                          Originally posted by KeithL View Post
                          It's easy to take that view when you haven't been exposed to the consequences of war. (I was born in Coventry and well remember it in ruins after the war.
                          Coventry is often mentioned in the context of severe bombing raids - 'Coventry got hit bad!', but it was a mere scratch compared to Hamburg. I've got a book somewhere "The Night Hamburg Died", but I can't put my hand to it at the moment but I remember that the figures relating to the destruction were off the scale. I do remember that the city burned for 10 days. Wikipedia quotes a U.S. Major comparing the destruction to the Nagasaki atom bomb:

                          "In January 1946, Major Cortez F. Enloe, a surgeon in the USAAF who worked on the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS), said that the fire effects of the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki "were not nearly as bad as the effects of the R.A.F. raids on Hamburg on July 27th 1943". He estimated that more than 40,000 people died in Hamburg."

                          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombin...n_World_War_II

                          I also remember seeing people with WW1 and WW2 injuries that blighted the whole of their remaining lives) I showed one guy at work who made such comment some photos of WW1 soldiers injured by shrapnel and asked if he would REALLY want to do that to another human being. He went white, and I thought he was going to faint. He didn't make such comment again - at least, not to me!
                          If every male was shown the works of Otto Dix after WW1, there would never have been a WW2:

                          https://www.google.com/search?q=otto...-84WBW3NsNNwM:

                          Excellent post, Keith!

                          Jim

                          Comment


                          • Re: Boris Gate

                            Originally posted by Harold Gough View Post
                            I was unaware of such a correlation. I am in my 70s and couldn't care less about sport, and am not obsessed by WW2, but I detest the lack of sovereignty of our parliament and our courts. Nothing to do with giving anyone a kicking.

                            Harold
                            It seems many of the older folks have believed the BS put about by the brexit lobby. They will be long dead while we still live with the consequences of their gullibility....
                            Stuff from Cuba
                            More stuff from Cuba
                            It all started here

                            Comment


                            • Re: Boris Gate

                              I have heard this "sovereignty" mantra so many times! That must mean that Brexiteers also want us to leave the United Nations, which is a higher authority than the EU, and plays a far bigger part in our legal framework.

                              Now, the European Court of Justice was set up in 1952 - before the ECSC. It has a judge from every member state. Its task is to ensure the equal and consistent application of EU law and regulations across all member states. It is in effect a trade disputes court, and there is a similar requirement under WTO (UN) rules for any trading bloc, such as, for example, the African Continental Free Trade Area, which came into existence this year, or NAFTA.

                              By and large the EU does two things in respect of "laws".
                              1) it issues directives which say, 'please create a national law to do the following task'. Directives are just a few pages of A4. I participated in the development of two directives (89/336/EEC and 95/56/EC) into EU-wide regulations. The task was given to the British motor industry - these were sector specific regulations.

                              2) It passes down to all member states United Nations directives, which can have a big impact on any national laws.

                              Basically, the EU, like all trading blocs must do, operates under WTO rules. The latter include rules on free movement of people, environment, 'level playing field' and so on.

                              In addition to the above, UKIP especially drummed up well, hatred, of the European Court of Human Rights. That is emphatically NOT part of the EU; it has 47 members, and was set up by the European Convention on Human Rights as a result of the bringing to trial the Nazis at Nuremburg. You can be a member of the EHCR without being in the EU, but you cannot be in the EU without being a member of the ECHR.

                              The EU is basically a club. If any of us wish to join this forum (or any real club), we have to agree to be bound by its rules; if we won't, or we do and break the rules, we are penalized. Therefore, we give up a bit of our personal sovereignty in order to benefit from using the forum. If we leave the forum or club, we can only look on from outside it, and have no benefit of membership. The EU is no different.

                              You may be interested to hear that there is also the UN(ECE) set of regulations, which are again nothing to do with the EU, and we (automotive we) have to comply with those in order to sell cars to both non EU AND EU products in Europe: UN (ECE) is the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe - and I bet there are almost no members of this forum who have ever heard of it.

                              As for the moaning about the cost and bureaucracy of the EU, think on this: in Britain, we offloaded a lot of civil servants because we didn't need them when we joined the then EEC. Today we have 439,000 civil servants. Multiply that by 28, and consider what that would cost. The EU's 37,000 civil servants to cater for 28 countries is hardly extravagant! In fact, when I first came into contact with the European Commission, it employed less people than our own Scottish Office - in fact, not enough, which is why the budget audit often failed to materialize: there weren't enough employees to do the work.

                              As I said a few posts ago, trade today is hugely complex when you try to create a level playing field. Outside the EU we will have to employ a helluva lot more civil servants if we want to achieve trade deals with other blocs - as well as the EU - and it will be very expensive. This is NOT the world of 1973, or even 1993, and rules and regulations about trade have burgeoned across the world. Remember GATT? That was the forerunner of the WTO. That has developed since we joined the EEC. We have no experience of it, and the fun and games will really start once we leave and try to go it alone.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Boris Gate

                                Originally posted by Jim Ford View Post
                                Coventry is often mentioned in the context of severe bombing raids - 'Coventry got hit bad!', but it was a mere scratch compared to Hamburg. I've got a book somewhere "The Night Hamburg Died", but I can't put my hand to it at the moment but I remember that the figures relating to the destruction were off the scale. I do remember that the city burned for 10 days. Wikipedia quotes a U.S. Major comparing the destruction to the Nagasaki atom bomb:

                                "In January 1946, Major Cortez F. Enloe, a surgeon in the USAAF who worked on the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (USSBS), said that the fire effects of the atomic bomb dropped on Nagasaki "were not nearly as bad as the effects of the R.A.F. raids on Hamburg on July 27th 1943". He estimated that more than 40,000 people died in Hamburg."

                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombin...n_World_War_II



                                If every male was shown the works of Otto Dix after WW1, there would never have been a WW2:

                                https://www.google.com/search?q=otto...-84WBW3NsNNwM:

                                Excellent post, Keith!

                                Jim
                                I only mentioned it Jim because it is my birthplace. 160 acres of the centre were flattened, plus many more streets with partial damage. Coventry is twinned with Dresden, and helped raise money and also had the huge ball made for the top of the dome of the Frauenkirche. My school was twinned with a Berlin high school.

                                My rather older brother was stationed just outside Hamburg at RAF Utersen in 1947/8. I well remember his descriptions of the utter destruction. My wife and I went to Dresden in 2000. There were still palaces then that were burned out shells. I mentioned damaged people from the war. There was a chap used to wander round Coventry who had lost his mind as a result of the bombing. In the 60s he used to try to direct traffic even at traffic lights, to the consternation of the police. When he wasn't doing that, he was marching an imaginary squad about the city. Some of my teachers were damaged too; one had 'shell shock'; he had been a Commando. One of my mother's neighbours was severely wounded in WW1; he was picked up by Germans in no-man's land, and had a large silver plate put in to repair his skull. They saved his life. And after all that, he wouldn't hear a word against them - which meant the neighbours shunned him. Another neighbor had been some form of French resistance member. She reputedly had the Croix de Guerre. I suspect she was in SOE or some such, because after she died - young, about 1959 - she had seemingly been using a false identity. There is no record of her funeral or even her existence in Coventry archives.

                                Those who start wars don't have to fight in them. It is those who believe and follow them who pay the real price.

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