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  • Re: Boris Gate

    Originally posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
    Much of the debate surrounding this election has been about threats of privatisation of the NHS (or not) rather than about Brexit.

    However, I have been told that under EU rules the NHS MUST put services out to competitive tender. This is required by the EU to prevent a state monopoly.
    What about other 'State Monopolies' - police force, army, airforce, navy? Must they be put out to competitive tender? There must be E.U. rules that make exceptions for many such services.

    Jim

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    • Re: Boris Gate

      Originally posted by Jim Ford View Post
      What about other 'State Monopolies' - police force, army, airforce, navy? Must they be put out to competitive tender? There must be E.U. rules that make exceptions for many such services.

      Jim
      Government?

      Harold
      The body is willing but the mind is weak.

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      • Re: Boris Gate

        Originally posted by Jim Ford View Post
        What about other 'State Monopolies' - police force, army, airforce, navy? Must they be put out to competitive tender? There must be E.U. rules that make exceptions for many such services.

        Jim
        This is something that I was told by a usually well-informed source, (and a Remainer) but I do not know how authentic the information is.

        With regard to the police and armed forces, they are all agents of the state, which the NHS is not. That is my interpretation for what it is worth.
        ---------------

        Naughty Nigel


        Difficult is worth doing

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        • Re: Boris Gate

          Originally posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
          Much of the debate surrounding this election has been about threats of privatisation of the NHS (or not) rather than about Brexit.

          However, I have been told that under EU rules the NHS MUST put services out to competitive tender. This is required by the EU to prevent a state monopoly.

          I don't know how true this is but it could mean the only way the NHS can be truly nationalised again is to leave the EU. Likewise railways, utilities, BT and so forth.

          The same rules demand that services such as police and ambulance have to by their vehicles form the cheapest bidder, so we see our police driving around in German cars. meanwhile the French do what they like!
          I thought I'd left this thread, but couldn't let this go unchallenged.

          I'll stand to be corrected, but it's my understanding that this is a myth deliberately spread as anti-EU propaganda.
          I'm pretty sure that whoever started it chose to deliberately misrepresent the actual facts in order to deceive.

          "I've been told that", or "I've heard that" etc, without quoting and fact checking the source, is an excellent way of spreading misinformation, whilst not being accountable for it.
          (I accept that in this case it's probably done inadvertently, which in the current climate is why we must be very careful in believing what we read; confirmation/cognative bias maybe; we are all guilty of it, but can hopefully mitigate a bit by accepting the possibility)

          The following quote is from a Kings Fund report, though similar information is available elsewhere. ( I've had to re-format it slightly to make it readable here, but the wording is unchanged)

          Best Regards
          Bill

          The nearest I have to a home page.
          http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/
          They're Watching You!

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          • Re: Boris Gate

            Thanks for clearing that up Bill.
            ---------------

            Naughty Nigel


            Difficult is worth doing

            Comment


            • Re: Boris Gate

              Originally posted by Naughty Nigel View Post
              Thanks for clearing that up Bill.
              Happy to assist, and pleased to stop another rumour re-surfacing; it's been a little while since I saw that one.

              We've all seen videos and speeches by such as Nigel Farrage and Daniel Hannan, along with articles such as This One.

              Being aware of my previous point on cognitive bias, I appreciate two of these are Grauniad links, but it's just that I had them bookmarked. (Other sources are available )

              I appreciate that not everyone is fond of Twitter, or has an account there, but This Thread is worth speed reading ( normal safe web page- you don't need a Twitter account)
              This is the preface to it, and the author, Holger Hestermeyer, really does understand his day job;

              "So the debate about the NHS and free trade has deteriorated to “the NHS is not on the table” vs handing over 500 million a week. Here’s a primer on what pharma in FTAs is really about, what we should worry about and what we should not worry about"

              Essentially its complicated.

              Many people claim to know exactly what they voted for, I don't, but I'd wager no-one understood the implications of what they voted for.

              Bear in mind this is just one small topic in one FTA. Any reader should begin to understand, that the likelihood of organising and passing an FTA with the EU, and replacing it with a suitable one with the US in the next 12 months is rather unlikely.

              To bring it back to the tread title;
              Where does this leave the UK, I would argue possibly losing the "United" bit and maybe heading for a no-deal departure if Boris gets his way.
              Best Regards
              Bill

              The nearest I have to a home page.
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/
              They're Watching You!

              Comment


              • Re: Boris Gate

                Originally posted by peak4 View Post
                Happy to assist, and pleased to stop another rumour re-surfacing; it's been a little while since I saw that one.

                ..............

                To bring it back to the tread title;
                Where does this leave the UK, I would argue possibly losing the "United" bit and maybe heading for a no-deal departure if Boris gets his way.
                That's what I voted for back in 2016.
                Dave

                My Flickr

                Comment


                • Re: Boris Gate

                  Originally posted by peak4 View Post
                  Happy to assist, and pleased to stop another rumour re-surfacing; it's been a little while since I saw that one.
                  ..........................

                  To bring it back to the tread title;
                  Where does this leave the UK, I would argue possibly losing the "United" bit and maybe heading for a no-deal departure if Boris gets his way.
                  Originally posted by wornish View Post
                  That's what I voted for back in 2016.
                  Quite happy to accept your word for that, as everyone had their own reasons - wide and disparate, (which is one of my points), though no-deal was barely mentioned as a possibility at the time.

                  Your choice, which I respect, was based on the information available at the time; I would argue that this information has been updated rather in the last 3+ years.

                  I still maintain, that no-one understood the implications of what they were voting for; Have a read of this Ivan Rogers article in The Spectator; not a magazine best noted for it's left wing rhetoric.
                  Best Regards
                  Bill

                  The nearest I have to a home page.
                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/peak4/
                  They're Watching You!

                  Comment


                  • Re: Boris Gate

                    Yes, the ramifications of leaving are complex but no more or less than any other vote we have held in any general election. Knowing what I know now I would still vote the same.
                    Dave

                    My Flickr

                    Comment


                    • Re: Boris Gate

                      As we've drifted onto Brexit I thought that I'd post the following that I found on Quora. It really sums up the Leavers attitude:

                      Question: If the British public voted to leave the EU, why are many politicians acting like we merely voted to just negotiate leaving? The question wasn’t “should we negotiate leaving the EU”. All parties should get behind what the people voted for.

                      Answer: Are you the sort of person who arrives at an airport and has the following conversation with the ticket-desk clerk?
                      You: I want to leave.
                      Clerk: Yes, of course, Sir. And where would you like to go to?
                      You: What?
                      Clerk: Where exactly do you intend travelling?
                      You: What don’t you understand about what I just said? I want to leave. So why don’t you just do your job, book my flight and let me leave.
                      Clerk: I certainly will, Sir. ... But, where exactly do you want to go?
                      You: No need to speak slowly like you think I’m thick. It’s you that’s being deliberately stupid. I want to leave. Just give me a ticket to leave.
                      Clerk: If you would kindly state where you wish to—
                      You: Out—that’s where I want to go. This is an airport and so I obviously want to leave the country.
                      Clerk: We do have domestic flights....
                      You: Now you’re just been smart. Whatever happened to ‘the customer is always right’? Just get me away from here. Somewhere foreign. And make sure it’s not in the bloody EU.
                      Clerk: ‘Somewhere foreign’ isn’t on our system, so—
                      You: Why are you denying me my right to travel out of this country?
                      Clerk: Sir, I simply need to put in a destination before I can book you a flight.
                      You: So, let’s make this really simple. Just tell me where the very next flight is going?
                      Clerk: Let me see, that would be Northern Ireland ... Belfast International Airport.
                      You: You’re kidding me! That’s not foreign, is it!? And it’s not out of the EU. Don’t you even know basic geography?
                      Clerk: You said ‘the very next flight’.
                      You: Do I look like I’d EVER want to go there?. ... What’s the next flight after that?
                      Clerk: To Canada ... Toronto Pearson Airport.
                      You: No.
                      Clerk: You also have a Norway option, landing at Oslo Airport.
                      You: No.
                      Clerk: Switzerland? Zurich International Airport?
                      You: No! ... Why is this taking so long?
                      Clerk: The United States of America. ... New York. John F. Kennedy Airport.
                      You: Yes, that’s more like it! That’s exactly what I had in mind.
                      Clerk: But, Sir, I need to ask—do you have a travel visa?
                      You: What?!!
                      Clerk: You’ll need an ESTA visa to travel to the US. You apply on-line.
                      You: Why are you putting these obstacles in my path? I just want to leave. Why are you stopping me leaving? You are deliberately keeping me here against my wishes. ... Someone call the police!
                      Clerk: Sir ...?
                      You: Call the police. I’m been kept hostage! And it’s all part of an elaborate plot by those who never accepted that I wanted to leave, never thought I was capable of making that decision for myself, never accepted my right to self-determination!
                      Clerk: Sir, Sir! Here’s a destination that’s abroad, out of the EU, and doesn’t require a visa.
                      You: About bloody time!
                      Clerk: Uzbekistan. Samarkand International Airport.
                      You: Oh, okay then. ... Just one question.
                      Clerk: Yes?
                      You: Where exactly is that?

                      Jim

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                      • At last - the Brexit dividend!

                        For Germany!

                        https://www.ft.com/content/377c2b42-...7-8fcec0c3b0f9

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                        • Re: At last - the Brexit dividend!

                          Reckon my old mum got more from her Co-Op dividend than we will get from Brexit

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                          • Re: At last - the Brexit dividend!

                            Do we really need yet another Political/Brexit thread ? I would have thought there were plenty on here already


                            Jax

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                            • Re: At last - the Brexit dividend!

                              Originally posted by Jax View Post
                              Do we really need yet another Political/Brexit thread ? I would have thought there were plenty on here already


                              Jax
                              Yes! Just nice to have one with a bit of reality attached to it.
                              Stuff from Cuba
                              More stuff from Cuba
                              It all started here

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                              • Re: At last - the Brexit dividend!

                                I've got a very busy week ahead, but I've just got enough time to get Brexit done before my train leaves in the morning.
                                Stuff from Cuba
                                More stuff from Cuba
                                It all started here

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