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  • Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

    A recent study in Germany shows that electric vehicles actually pollute more than Diesel ones. Who would have believed it?


    http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...an-study-shows
    Dave

    My Flickr

  • #2
    Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

    Indeed. I believe this is reasonably accurate and when you consider the heavy metals and rare earth elements needed for modern electronics there are a number of other actors as well which need to be considered in terms of total environmental impact

    IMO electric vehicles are useful for improving air quality in critical areas and that is the main reason to consider them but the hype that goes with them (which I have researched a lot recently leading up to an electric motorcycle purchase for my wife) omits so many facts that the manufacturers miss out that it is east to draw the wrong conclusions

    The main thing we need to consider is thinking more long term. Many of those rare elements are not easy to recycle out from electronic compounds whereas the energy used to produce my 31Yr old Land Rover is still in use (not 10 years as per the study).

    regards
    Andy
    My Kit (OK I'm a hoarder...)
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    • #3
      Regards,
      Mark

      ------------------------------
      http://www.microcontrast.com
      Too much Oly gear.
      Panasonic GM5, 12-32, 12-35, 15, 35-100, Laowa 7.5.
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      • #4
        Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

        What about the folks (I hate the bastardisation of the English language) mining neodymium on minimum wage, probably at subsistence or sub-subsistence levels suffering serious health risks. I suspect the average bod doesn't give these poor sods a second thought as they enter the flashy car showroom.

        In the grand scale of things, my intuition informs me that the environment would be in a better place if cars were kept and used for 10 years before replacement. There is a tremendous cost to the environment to manufacture new cars.
        Steve

        on flickr

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        • #5
          Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

          Originally posted by drmarkf View Post
          I assume you’re not arguing for ignoring the 30,000 premature deaths in the U.K. per year caused by vehicle emissions on our roads, so pollution as defined by that is indeed vastly worse with old diesel engines (those not meeting the latest NCAP standards), especially the very oldest. Those are usually commercial vehicles.
          You are making several wild assumptions there Mark.
          Firstly, that the emissions responsible for those 30,000 premature deaths all originate from motor vehicle exhausts, and specifically road vehicles. I am not convinced that they do.

          Secondly, that fossil fuel fired power stations are emission free and won't cause wider global damage. I am not convinced that they are;

          Thirdly, that the materials used to produce electric cars and their battery systems are inherently safe. I am not convinced that they are either;

          Fourthly, that there is no risk attached to particulate matter originating from rubber tyres and brake friction materials; both of which are used in ICE and electric vehicles;

          Finally, that there would be no deaths as a result of the manufacture or use of electric vehicles. For example, how many more people might be run over by silent cars than by clattering diesels?


          As I see it, engineers have been very successful in cleaning up pollution so that we no longer realise that we are polluting. The smoke from steam trains and old diesel engines was obvious, and to a degree self-limiting because there were limits to what we could function in, and what we would put up with. Electric vehicles are just an exercise in moving pollution somewhere else to people who don't matter as much, and don't have as many votes as those in the big cities.

          The DPF systems fitted to diesel engines reduce particulate emissions to very low levels. Modern petrol engines are also very clean, but the remaining particulates are tiny. Crucially, these particulates are of 'respirable size', and are much smaller than those from older engines.

          My guess it that whilst the exhaust fumes from a thirty year old diesel Land Rover may be unpleasant, they may actually be less harmful to us than the exhaust fumes from a Euro 6 Discovery.

          Somebody recently said that the private motor car is a failed 20th century experiment which should be scrapped. I tend to agree. Rather than making pollution cleaner we really need to find ways of polluting less.
          ---------------

          Naughty Nigel


          Difficult is worth doing

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          • #6
            Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

            Nigel, do you suggest we all sit in the dark at home?
            Also, Steve, whilst you are right about the effects on the miners, if you were to take away their jobs they wouldn’t thank you for that. Give them an alternative and it would be different though.
            Sadly the world is an unfair, overpopulated place, we all have to die of something (hopefully before dementia gets us) and the rich (mostly) don’t care about anything except themselves. Ever it was and ever it shall be I expect.

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            • #7
              Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

              Originally posted by Ricoh View Post
              ...

              In the grand scale of things, my intuition informs me that the environment would be in a better place if cars were kept and used for 10 years before replacement. There is a tremendous cost to the environment to manufacture new cars.
              Deliberately built-in obsolescence in all manner of technology, including white goods and other products like soft furnishings and clothes, is a massive environmental scandal which seemingly no government is prepared to address. Durability of most products has gone down and down. Cars however seem to have bucked the trend. In my memory (40+ years ago) a car which did 100k miles was extraordinary, whereas now it is normal.

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              • #8
                Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

                Where did I suggest that we should sit in the dark?

                Transport of all kinds uses thousands of times more energy and creates thousands of times more pollution than light bulbs.

                The private motor car is probably the most inefficient and polluting mode of land transport ever devised, especially if only the driver is on board. Even air travel generates fewer KG of CO2 per passenger mile travelled.

                The fact is that a large percentage of road journeys and flights are unnecessary, or could be avoided with better planning and organisation.

                The problem is that successive governments have come to rely on the vast revenue generated by road users so whatever the claimed risks to health caused by motor vehicles they are unlikely to want to reduce road travel any time soon.
                ---------------

                Naughty Nigel


                Difficult is worth doing

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                • #9
                  Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

                  Originally posted by RobEW View Post
                  Deliberately built-in obsolescence in all manner of technology, including white goods and other products like soft furnishings and clothes, is a massive environmental scandal which seemingly no government is prepared to address. Durability of most products has gone down and down. Cars however seem to have bucked the trend. In my memory (40+ years ago) a car which did 100k miles was extraordinary, whereas now it is normal.
                  ---------------

                  Naughty Nigel


                  Difficult is worth doing

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

                    Anyone who is serious about tackling the problem of climate change and lowering their households carbon footprint, has to take serious consideration of their lifestyle choices.

                    Pet ownership has a much bigger carbon footprint than car ownership

                    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm.../#2cada88413a6
                    Graham

                    We often repeat the mistakes we most enjoy...

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                    • #11
                      Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

                      Originally posted by Graham_of_Rainham View Post
                      Anyone who is serious about tackling the problem of climate change and lowering their households carbon footprint, has to take serious consideration of their lifestyle choices.

                      Pet ownership has a much bigger carbon footprint than car ownership

                      https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcm.../#2cada88413a6
                      Unbelievable, don't know where to even begin with the Forbes article.

                      So no pets - that will fix it.

                      Talk about lost the plot - jeesh! Virtue signaling in overdrive.

                      By the way, the climate has changed and will continue to change because of things way more significant than pet ownership - perhaps look at Sun activity, for example, just a thought.
                      Dave

                      My Flickr

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                      • #12
                        Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

                        People cannot change the activity of the sun. So we must look at the things we can change.

                        Meat production is by far the best place to start.

                        Plus it’s not just one source of data saying that pets are a problem
                        https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/4/16...climate-change

                        Reforestation is another huge change that needs to be made.

                        As for cars, simply having the correct tyre pressure can make a significant difference to fuel consumption. When I undertook an advanced drivers course, the first thing they said was they would save me money on fuel and I would more often than not cut my journey time.
                        Graham

                        We often repeat the mistakes we most enjoy...

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                        • #13
                          Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

                          I don't pretend to be anywhere near as technically knowledgeable as many on here about climate change or the reasons that cause it.

                          One thing I don't understand is whilst I have seen many comments blaming diesel cars and now of all things even pet ownership, little has been said regarding the effects of the hundreds of thousands of passenger jets in the skies every minute of the day and night. Is this because aviation fuel does not have the same impact as diesel fuel or is it simply due to political or financial motives and far easier to blame car usage ? Surely the billions of gallons of aviation fuel burned by passenger aircraft every hour comes close or exceeds the amount consumed by the worlds vehicles.

                          Maybe someone with technical knowledge can explain ?

                          Jax

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                          • #14
                            Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

                            Originally posted by Jax View Post
                            I don't pretend to be anywhere near as technically knowledgeable as many on here about climate change or the reasons that cause it.

                            One thing I don't understand is whilst I have seen many comments blaming diesel cars and now of all things even pet ownership, little has been said regarding the effects of the hundreds of thousands of passenger jets in the skies every minute of the day and night. Is this because aviation fuel does not have the same impact as diesel fuel or is it simply due to political or financial motives and far easier to blame car usage ? Surely the billions of gallons of aviation fuel burned by passenger aircraft every hour comes close or exceeds the amount consumed by the worlds vehicles.

                            Maybe someone with technical knowledge can explain ?

                            Jax
                            I share your concerns in this regard. The fact that CO2 is generated at 40,000' must also be a factor, although I believe jet aircraft do help to burn methane in the earth's upper atmosphere which is around four times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2.

                            That said, the fuel burnt per passenger mile by modern aircraft compares very favourably with private motor vehicles.

                            As far as I know there is little or no tax on aviation fuel; hence the reason it is dyed to prevent use in road vehicles. (I used to use Avgas 100LL in my racing bike. Avgas is coloured blue.)

                            For aviation fuel tax to be workable there would need to be consensus between governments otherwise airlines would simply route via countries where aviation fuel tax was lowest. This was one of the reasons for Shannon Airport in Southern Ireland becoming an important stopping off point for transatlantic flights in times of old. The Duty Free shop there was also one of the biggest rip-offs I have ever come across in my life. Oddly enough, everything is priced in $USD. Gullible or what?
                            ---------------

                            Naughty Nigel


                            Difficult is worth doing

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                            • #15
                              Re: Electric Vehicles Emit more CO2 than Diesel

                              Originally posted by wornish View Post
                              A recent study in Germany shows that electric vehicles actually pollute more than Diesel ones. Who would have believed it?


                              http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...an-study-shows

                              Comment

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