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Olympus Service & Brexit?

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  • #31
    Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

    Originally posted by pdk42 View Post
    Brexit is a disaster for Britain. Cameron will go down in history as the PM who scuppered the UK and led it to the beginning of terminal decline.
    The damage was done by Tony Blair long before David Cameron got anywhere near Downing Street. Blair signed us up for ever closer integration with Europe, and would have had us join the € Euro if he'd had his way.

    In my view it was Blair's actions whilst in power that ultimately led to our dissatisfaction with Europe, and Thursday's vote; but he was a Labour PM, and so could do no wrong in the eyes of his followers.

    As a small business owner I wanted to remain in the EU for my own reasons, but I can fully understand why so many people voted to leave. We have collectively created a monster (the EU) that was completely out of our control; and yet we had to abide by its rules. Put simply, the EU is run by the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

    However, I am also unhappy with the way that both the Project Fear and Leave campaigners have behaved throughout. Project Fear warned of an apocalypse if we left, but failed to provide any cogent arguments for remaining. Certainly, some of the issues that have now transpired were never raised during campaigning. Why not? Did they think it would never happen?

    Meanwhile, the Leave campaigners, including Private Walker (Nigel Farage) have been downright dishonest throughout. Frankly, there is very little honour on either side.

    David Cameron and George Osborne did warn us about the risks of leaving the EU, (even if they were not very persuasive), but they were largely ignored because they are David Cameron and George Osborne!

    Labour voters will usually follow their leader, but Jeremy Corbyn was downright useless throughout.

    So where does that leave us? We are not at war, the sun is shining, and other EU nations still want to trade with us.

    Any obstacles put in our way will be purely man made, so hopefully we can negotiate our way out of this mess, but it doesn't look as if the French or Germans want to make it easy for us.

    (I also wonder whether we have lost the ability to negotiate with other nations after forty years of EU membership.)

    Our best hope is that other EU member nations will follow suit, (there is plenty of discontent elsewhere), so that a new EU can be built; this time by the right people for the right reasons.

    As for Scottish independence, it was obvious that Nicola Sturgeon (& Co.) would want a re-run of the Scottish Referendum every other year until she got the result that she wanted. The Leave vote is just one more reason for her to try her luck once again.
    ---------------

    Naughty Nigel


    Difficult is worth doing

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    • #32
      Colin
      "Don't blame me..."

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      • #33
        Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

        Originally posted by pdk42 View Post
        Brexit is a disaster for Britain. Cameron will go down in history as the PM who scuppered the UK and led it to the beginning of terminal decline. It's 100% clear that Brexit will cause a recession and it will be long lasting for the simple reason that all this change brings uncertainty and the last thing business investment needs is uncertainty.

        And the level of change will be enormous. It's a foregone conclusion that Scotland will demand a new independence referendum and in all likelihood win it. Then there'll be at least 5 years of uncertainty over our EU break with all manner of things to be undone after 40 years of membership. Top that with concerns over renewed violence in NI and you've got a perfect storm.

        And what do we get for all this? - very little. Likely no real change in immigration, smaller economy so less money in government coffers (the loss of tax revenue due to a 0.6% drop in GDP will wipe out the EU levies), and worst of all a country led by Boris, Gove et al with Farage egging them on. Ask yourself who among world political leaders supports our leave decision - and you'll find a short list headed by Putin, Trump, LePen etc. That should tell you everything.

        I can't remember a time when I've been so depressed and embarrassed to be British.
        You are correct in everything you say Paul. You only have to look at the world figures who think it's good news to realise what a mind numbingly stupid decision has been made. All because a Tory PM wanted to calm some Eurosceptics in his own party.

        As others rightly say many governments have failed to address the many things wrong with the EU and that is to their eternal shame. I think it also reflects the growing utter contempt that our politicians are held in due to the elitist way they behave and have done for decades. It is also true to say that senior business figures are regarded in the same way so when they said how bad it would be to leave their views were utterly disregarded.

        Many factors at work here but the end result is a short and medium term of considerable pain and a completely unknown longer term. The latter is pretty much always true of course but it is even worse now.

        For me though of equal concern is the divisive nature of all this. The 48% will always resent the Brexeteers. The young in particular are now very disenfranchised and regard our generation as robbing them of much that was potentially good in their lives to come. My three are all very bitter and I understand their point fully. This link sums this up well.http://digiday.com/publishers/commen...ebsite-brexit/

        So to Cameron in particular I say curse you for this awful and hideous mess. To Farage, Johnson and Gove equal contempt for your part.

        To those structuring both campaigns I say well done for putting together the biggest pile of misinformation, lies and general horse manure ever seen in the long history of deceitful political campaigns.

        Curse and damn all who did this as for the first time is my 62 years I find myself genuinely worried, indeed afraid, about what the future holds for us all and in particular the next generations.

        What on earth will history say about this.

        Best I stop now I think and apologies for my outpouring but in my defence, imperfect though it is, I am so depressed and angry and feel utterly helpless.

        Hec
        I've worked hard to be this grumpy. It hasn't been easy at times but it's worth it.

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        • #34
          Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

          https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215
          Stuff from Cuba
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          It all started here

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          • #35
            Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

            On re-reading my post of a few minutes ago I may have gone too far in my comments and overstepped the mark in the context of the lounge

            If so please accept my apologies and if the moderators deem it appropriate I will very much understand if they delete the post.

            Hec
            I've worked hard to be this grumpy. It hasn't been easy at times but it's worth it.

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            • #36
              Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

              Originally posted by George Dorn View Post
              Of course the EU leaders will not wish to see us have an easy time, partly to influence other members wo are considering exit, and partly for populist reasons. I wonder what the French equivalent to 'up yours, Delors' is?
              As I said above, I wanted to remain in the EU for my own reasons, but the way I see it:

              1) Our membership of the EU would have become more and more fraught as time went by, and the Eurocrats became more powerful.

              2) EU Membership fees would have gone up, not down.

              3) It is very unlikely that we would have received significant additional EU funding or rebates in the future.

              4) It would have been made ever more difficult for us to leave in the future if we had wanted to - rather like a dodgy mobile phone contract or timeshare agreement.

              As I said above, any difficulties will be entirely man made, (specifically French made I suspect). What sort of organisation treats its 'valued members' in this way? And what would be its motives?
              ---------------

              Naughty Nigel


              Difficult is worth doing

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              • #37
                Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

                Originally posted by Grumpy Hec View Post
                So to Cameron in particular I say curse you for this awful and hideous mess. To Farage, Johnson and Gove equal contempt for your part.

                To those structuring both campaigns I say well done for putting together the biggest pile of misinformation, lies and general horse manure ever seen in the long history of deceitful political campaigns.

                Curse and damn all who did this as for the first time is my 62 years I find myself genuinely worried, indeed afraid, about what the future holds for us all and in particular the next generations.

                What on earth will history say about this.

                Best I stop now I think and apologies for my outpouring but in my defence, imperfect though it is, I am so depressed and angry and feel utterly helpless.

                Hec
                ---------------

                Naughty Nigel


                Difficult is worth doing

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                • #38
                  Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

                  Few of the electorate held the MEPs to account, let alone showed much interest in the European Parliament and so EU bureaucracy expanded. I hope that there are enough concerns raised and we see the EU reformed in a less pervasive model that we could take advantage of, without suffering the perceived disadvantages and costs of the union we are about to leave.
                  Colin
                  "Don't blame me..."

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                  • #39
                    Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

                    Originally posted by George Dorn View Post
                    Few of the electorate held the MEPs to account, let alone showed much interest in the European Parliament and so EU bureaucracy expanded. I hope that there are enough concerns raised and we see the EU reformed in a less pervasive model that we could take advantage of, without suffering the perceived disadvantages and costs of the union we are about to leave.
                    Exactly!

                    This is what Boris seems to want.
                    ---------------

                    Naughty Nigel


                    Difficult is worth doing

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                    • #40
                      Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

                      Originally posted by Grumpy Hec View Post
                      On re-reading my post of a few minutes ago I may have gone too far in my comments and overstepped the mark in the context of the lounge

                      If so please accept my apologies and if the moderators deem it appropriate I will very much understand if they delete the post.

                      Hec
                      Never look back! I agree with your sentiments entirely Hec. My two kids are 15 and 13 and I too feel worried for their future following this. I detested Blair, especially for taking us into Iraq, but I think Cameron has probably trumped him in my estimation.

                      I feel that we need a new generation of politicians and a new agenda for the nation. I deeply fear a Boris/Gove government and whilst Theresa May might be more conciliatory, I can't see how can she bring any passion and vision to this mess.

                      I have a vague hope that a leader will emerge in the Labour ranks who can re-form the party into something that re-engages the country and gets to the root of fixing the terrible income inequality we have:

                      https://thecurrentmoment.wordpress.c...ality-poverty/
                      Paul
                      E-M1ii, Pen-F and too many lenses
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                      • #41
                        Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

                        Originally posted by Jim Ford View Post
                        A very interesting observation by your colleague!

                        Although a baby during WW2, my German wife carries a mountain of guilt for what was carried out by Germany during the Nazi regime. I told her years ago that there is no difference between the character of the British and Germans, and that given the same circumstances prevailing in Britain as there were in Germany following WW1, Britain would have trodden a similar path.

                        The Referendum exposed a deep xenophobia in the electorate and an all too readiness to follow the rantings of a right wing ideologue. The current situation has strong echoes of early 30s Germany!

                        Jim
                        Jim, I have just read through this thread and while I understand your views especially as your wife is German, I cannot agree with your analysis that given the same conditions, British people would have behaved the same. My father was there at the battle of Cable Street as were thousands of others bent on disrupting the fringe idiots lead by Mosley. Would we have engaged in mindless genocide, I think not.

                        Just read the reaction by the photographer Lee Miller when she arrived after the German surrender. I have had dozens of German colleagues, as always there were some I liked and respected. Others, I despised. One was my senior manager who lectured me on the conduct and effectiveness of the ordinary German soldier during WW11. My response was to say "is that what happened in Oradur-sur-Glane, the basis of your assessment? Needless to say, my career path was never the same.

                        It pains me to write in these terms, my family has been deeply affected by two wars with our German neighbours and try as I might, the anger runs very deep.

                        Regards


                        David
                        The beauty of not planning is that failure comes as a complete surprise and is not preceded by periods of anxiety

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                        • #42

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                          • #43
                            Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

                            With the interest rate on the national debt
                            Stuff from Cuba
                            More stuff from Cuba
                            It all started here

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                            • #44
                              Re: Olympus Service & Brexit?

                              Indeed. We have spoilt their spending plans.

                              One of the claims made by the Leave team, (and not denied by Project Fear) is that the EU and the Euro are both heading for financial disaster anyway, and that we are better off out of it.

                              How many bailouts can the European Central Bank afford to give to Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy, et al?

                              If you find yourself belonging to a club that has a rotten committee, is not too choosy about who I admits as members, and is only interested in collecting membership fees to spend on pet projects it is probably best to get out before they take the shirt from your back.

                              I am a pragmatist, and for that reason I didn't want us to leave the EU, but I can see many reasons why we might just be better off if we look beyond the end of next week.
                              ---------------

                              Naughty Nigel


                              Difficult is worth doing

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                              • #45
                                Steve

                                on flickr

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